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That DAMNED choke cable winding stuck in chassis HELP!
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:20 am    Post subject: That DAMNED choke cable winding stuck in chassis HELP! Reply with quote

SO its time to pull my body off my 58 bug vert again! i replaced the pans 2 years ago with aftermarket crap pans. i just found a great set of factory 58 pans so im gonna weld them in. while im at it i need to replace the choke cable. the original one pulled out and the casing was way stuck! so i tried pulling from either end back and forth trying to get it to budge only to have the casing unwind. so i started wrapping the fucker around a 2x4 and pulled and pulled the unraveling casing til it went SNAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (down inside the tube where i cant grab it with vice grips)SON OF A BIIII... any how , my donor chassis had the same series of events. i was able to carefully remove the tube though from this other chassis to either continue to screw with it, or to use it as a pattern to measure lenght and bends to fix my original. any ideas on how to get the remainder of the casings out of my original chassis??? PLEASE GOD OH PLEASE im putting a stock 36hp motor in it soon and need this to work!
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johnshenry Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drop Jim Bremer an e-mail at [email protected].

He just went through this (hell) and came up with a pretty inventive was to "soak it out" with penetrating oil.

Make sure you post how you ultimately win this battle......
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VWwerks
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what worked for me. I cut the cable down so 6" or so was sticking out the front and then put a small hole in the corner of a zip lock bag and slid it over the cable and tube. I took a rubberband and sealed it the best I could to the tube coming out of the chassis. Then I filled the bag with kroil and let it soak, re-filling it when needed for a day or 2. Then grabbed the other end with a vice grips and "bang" it let loose.
If you don't have an end to grab onto you would need to replace the tube, which can be done but that is a day long job.
Jim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel your pain, I just recently removed and relubed the choke cable tube in my '55 chassis as a preventative measure, I had replaced the cable maybe 10 years ago, earlier this year I heard a trick from an old timer at a swap meet, he told me how he has used headliner bows flattened down on one end then chucked up in a drill to clean out intake manifold passages, he noted that the headliner rods were a high quality spring steel which was very durable for the angled drilling and poking necessary to clean out an intake, I suspect that the length and strength of one of these bows may be enough to help dislodge a stuck cable too, its worth a try before you start hacking into the chassis to replace the entire tube, its never too soon to start dumping Kroil everywhere though, it can work miracles but you have to be patient
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kroil here I come........same problem, on a Nov '52 chassis.

I think VW upped the conduit size from 8mm to 10mm at some point, perhaps in response to this problem?

H.
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
This is what worked for me. I cut the cable down so 6" or so was sticking out the front and then put a small hole in the corner of a zip lock bag and slid it over the cable and tube. I took a rubberband and sealed it the best I could to the tube coming out of the chassis. Then I filled the bag with kroil and let it soak, re-filling it when needed for a day or 2. Then grabbed the other end with a vice grips and "bang" it let loose.
If you don't have an end to grab onto you would need to replace the tube, which can be done but that is a day long job.
Jim


the problem i have is the cable is broken inside the tube with nothing fdor me to grab from either end. both my donor chassis which i carefully removed the tube complete from and my original 58 vert chassis both have sections of cable sheathing stuck in them. i really dont want to hack into the original chassis and cut flaps or holes that i have to weld up and ultimately weaken the cars frame (especially since its a vert and it needs all the rigidity it can get) can i weld those headliner rods together or maybe weld the a 1 inch piece of drill bit on the end? my coworker suggested ramming a piece of 10 gauge solid core wire down the pipe and tapping it with a hammer, then pulling it out when its almost in the pipe and pounding in a slightly longer piece. sounds like disaster waiting to happen not to mention the expense of all that copper wire. if i do have to cut into the tunnel what are the measurements to where i need to cut flaps at?
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RareAir
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:
i really dont want to hack into the original chassis and cut flaps or holes that i have to weld up and ultimately weaken the cars frame (especially since its a vert and it needs all the rigidity it can get)


The vert doesn't get it's rigidity from the pan at all. Karmann properly reinforced the bodies to compensate the deletion of the roof panel. Comparison of a pan from a sedan versus a vert only differ in the jacking point location. Sedans have them mounted to the pans halves, verts have them on the strengthening sill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would do a weeks or months long oil soak anyway (REAL penetrating oil like Kroil or PB blaster), then find a flexible wire sheath that you can slip in and tap the old one out. Like a bike brake cable, or lawnmower choke cable, or something like that. Something that is real close to the ID of the tubing. Maybe even another old choke cable.

Sometimes most of the time spent solving these problems is just finding the right "tools" for the job.

Keep us posted, those kinds of things are pretty challenging..... but beatable!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that you should try to drill out the tube, the idea of drilling through 4-5' stuck choke cable is not good. Even IF it works there is no way you could know if the tube is really clear of burrs and left over pieces of cable for the new cable to get stuck on.
I would just carefully grind out the flat metal area where the choke tube goes into the frame/bulk head on both ends to release the tube, weld a replacement tube to one end of the old tube, pull the old tube out with the welded replacement tube attached, cut the old tube off, and then weld a small round piece of sheet metal to seal the holes at both ends of the new tube. I seriously doubt a small 1/2" hole, covered by sheet metal, at both ends would affect the structure of the frame.
The only unknown is whether the old tube is welded inside the frame tunnel anywhere. If it is then I just wasted 10 min of my time typing this.
Laughing
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Last edited by Ninamashr on Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bill may
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

replace 28pic carb with 28 pict carb and forget manual choke.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with John, fill the tube with PB Blaster, then check on it daily. I would top it off daily from both ends of the choke cable tube until it doesn't take any more.

Let it soak in for a couple of weeks then try to extract it as John described. You might be surprised at how easy it comes out?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

56OvalRHD wrote:
I agree with John, fill the tube with PB Blaster, then check on it daily. I would top it off daily from both ends of the choke cable tube until it doesn't take any more.

Let it soak in for a couple of weeks then try to extract it as John described. You might be surprised at how easy it comes out?


Actually I think what Jim did was the bag at the front, tilted up, and a "catch" pan at the back, then just kept running it through. This insures that the solvent is moving through the tube. I think that is what he did.

And I agree that trying to drill it would be a very bad idea.

Does the cable sheath have PVC over it in the tube, or is it bare??
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the original cable has a plastic sheath around it which gets stuck probably from the inner coil swelling up and the outside tube rusting, I'm sure if you have one tube already out of the donor car you could apply heat to melt the sheathing out then quickly apply air pressure to flush out the still molten sheath material, I'm not sure how practical heat application would be to an installed tube but heat combined with air pressure plus penetrating oil may help, it may be possible to get inside the frame tube with a small propane torch at the front and rear ends as well as thru the shifter and transmission coupler access panel, of course remember the frame tunnel is likely to be full of explosive fuel fumes oil and grease, and again using air pressure to force the penetrating oil thru faster may help, I wouldnt use a lot of heat, now I'm thinking even a standard heat gun pointed into the chassis tube may work, maybe set it down inside the trans coupler hole and remove the front access panel to let the heat flow thru the tunnel, a propane torch may work but would cause a lot of future corrosion on the surface of the guide tube if not re-oiled inside there, may cause weakening of the tube too, but overall heat and fire can be your friend
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking fishing a NiChrome wire through the stuck cable and applying a good DC current to heat the sheath... but the wire would conduct to the sheath and at a lower resistance, all the current would go through the sheath and tube... unless it was insulated from the tube by the sleeve.

Hmm, might not hurt to try the old "pipe thaw" trick with a DC welder...
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RareAir wrote:
guteandtite wrote:
i really dont want to hack into the original chassis and cut flaps or holes that i have to weld up and ultimately weaken the cars frame (especially since its a vert and it needs all the rigidity it can get)


The vert doesn't get it's rigidity from the pan at all. Karmann properly reinforced the bodies to compensate the deletion of the roof panel. Comparison of a pan from a sedan versus a vert only differ in the jacking point location. Sedans have them mounted to the pans halves, verts have them on the strengthening sill
'

and the relavance of that was?
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bill may wrote:
replace 28pic carb with 28 pict carb and forget manual choke.


i want it factory correct
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninamashr wrote:
I don't think that you should try to drill out the tube, the idea of drilling through 4-5' stuck choke cable is not good. Even IF it works there is no way you could know if the tube is really clear of burrs and left over pieces of cable for the new cable to get stuck on.
I would just carefully grind out the flat metal area where the choke tube goes into the frame/bulk head on both ends to release the tube, weld a replacement tube to one end of the old tube, pull the old tube out with the welded replacement tube attached, cut the old tube off, and then weld a small round piece of sheet metal to seal the holes at both ends of the new tube. I seriously doubt a small 1/2" hole, covered by sheet metal, at both ends would affect the structure of the frame.
The only unknown is whether the old tube is welded inside the frame tunnel anywhere. If it is then I just wasted 10 min of my time typing this.
Laughing


yes, there are 3 braces inside the tunnel that ALL of the control tubes are welded to so i would have to cut access flasp to get a dremel in and cut them free from these brackets, break the weld form the front and rear and then replace the tube with a good one and weld up all 5 attachment points
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnshenry wrote:
56OvalRHD wrote:
I agree with John, fill the tube with PB Blaster, then check on it daily. I would top it off daily from both ends of the choke cable tube until it doesn't take any more.

Let it soak in for a couple of weeks then try to extract it as John described. You might be surprised at how easy it comes out?


Actually I think what Jim did was the bag at the front, tilted up, and a "catch" pan at the back, then just kept running it through. This insures that the solvent is moving through the tube. I think that is what he did.

And I agree that trying to drill it would be a very bad idea.

Does the cable sheath have PVC over it in the tube, or is it bare??


the cable is in essence identical to a bicycle control cable except its not a stranded control cable, tis solid core, with the spiral steel wire sheathing and that is coated with a vinyl outer layer and then that is all pushed through the steel conduit tube in the tunnel. does anyone also know if the original fuel was copper or steel? my 58 has a steel line nad thie 58 donor chassis had a copper line ( both appear factory- weird!)
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnshenry wrote:
I was thinking fishing a NiChrome wire through the stuck cable and applying a good DC current to heat the sheath... but the wire would conduct to the sheath and at a lower resistance, all the current would go through the sheath and tube... unless it was insulated from the tube by the sleeve.

Hmm, might not hurt to try the old "pipe thaw" trick with a DC welder...


whats the pipe thaw trick?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DC welders could be used to thaw frozen pipes by clamping them on either ends of the pipe and letting the current warm the pipe. You had to know the DC power output am minimum pipe length. If too much heat (too much current and/or too short a pipe) you could melt solder joints.

Its an "old school" plumbers trick.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.engr.joining.welding/browse_thread/thread/dfbca0e13d3b484c
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