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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Perfect - Thank you Cusser.
Cusser wrote: |
J-Gaz. wrote: |
So I'll give the pressure test a go once I can find a popper-sized T fitting for the fuel line. |
Parts store or Ace Hardware. |
_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7304 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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J-Gaz. wrote: |
Dougy Dee wrote: |
When you rebuilt the engine did you install a new fuel pump isolator? (The black Tee thing that fits under the fuel pump. )
A few incidences lately of them binding or grabbing the pump pushrod. |
I did not.
It's the Original (or at least super old). |
You might want to consider replacing it. Cheap and easy to do. I had an issue w/"vapor lock" w/my '72 Super (since sold) about 3 years ago or so. Turns out that the original bakelite fuel pump push rod guide was swelling up when the engine was hot and caused problems w/fuel flow. I would actually stall because it would just stop working. Replacing the bakelite resolved that problem. _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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I've got a feeling I may be having the shop go through my fuel system, tank, filter if applicable, cleaning out/ flushing the steel fuel line, back to the Fuel pump, replacing the base and hoses along the way - then testing the fuel pressure... You know, basically reducing the fuel system! ha!
If it's got debris in the fuel tank, it likely goes all the way back. May as well freshen everything up.
Wish it was something easier, but it usually never is...
vamram wrote: |
You might want to consider replacing it. Cheap and easy to do. I had an issue w/"vapor lock" w/my '72 Super (since sold) about 3 years ago or so. Turns out that the original bakelite fuel pump push rod guide was swelling up when the engine was hot and caused problems w/fuel flow. I would actually stall because it would just stop working. Replacing the bakelite resolved that problem. |
_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7304 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Well...replacing the bake light piece is *really* easy and you could potentially save hours of labor from a shop going through systems in details...sometimes you get lucky and it's the simplest thing in the chain....
J-Gaz. wrote: |
I've got a feeling I may be having the shop go through my fuel system, tank, filter if applicable, cleaning out/ flushing the steel fuel line, back to the Fuel pump, replacing the base and hoses along the way - then testing the fuel pressure... You know, basically reducing the fuel system! ha!
If it's got debris in the fuel tank, it likely goes all the way back. May as well freshen everything up.
Wish it was something easier, but it usually never is...
vamram wrote: |
You might want to consider replacing it. Cheap and easy to do. I had an issue w/"vapor lock" w/my '72 Super (since sold) about 3 years ago or so. Turns out that the original bakelite fuel pump push rod guide was swelling up when the engine was hot and caused problems w/fuel flow. I would actually stall because it would just stop working. Replacing the bakelite resolved that problem. |
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_________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31378 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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J-Gaz. wrote: |
My car is a 70, and I've not yet verified via internet searching if it had an in-tank filter - |
I have a 1970, mine since 1972. Its fuel tank had never been out when I resurrected the 1970 in 2016-2017. Mine definitely did NOT have an in-tank fuel sock - I had the tank out for cleaning.
I did add one though. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Awesome Cusser - this is great to know.
I may just add one as well.
When you resurrected yours had you run into an issue with gunk in the steel fuel line in the tunnel? Or did it not really need to be addressed?
Cusser wrote: |
J-Gaz. wrote: |
My car is a 70, and I've not yet verified via internet searching if it had an in-tank filter - |
I have a 1970, mine since 1972. Its fuel tank had never been out when I resurrected the 1970 in 2016-2017. Mine definitely did NOT have an in-tank fuel sock - I had the tank out for cleaning.
I did add one though. |
_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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@Vamram, you talking about this base, correct?
https://www.westcoastmetric.com/i-22964698-113-303.html
It would Swell up and inhibit the pushrod from functioning?
vamram wrote: |
You might want to consider replacing it. Cheap and easy to do. I had an issue w/"vapor lock" w/my '72 Super (since sold) about 3 years ago or so. Turns out that the original bakelite fuel pump push rod guide was swelling up when the engine was hot and caused problems w/fuel flow. I would actually stall because it would just stop working. Replacing the bakelite resolved that problem. |
_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31378 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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J-Gaz. wrote: |
Awesome Cusser - this is great to know.
I may just add one as well.
When you resurrected yours had you run into an issue with gunk in the steel fuel line in the tunnel? Or did it not really need to be addressed? |
No, did not try to, or need to, clean the steel fuel line running through the tunnel.
And there was no rust or particles in my fuel tank either (or in my 1988 Mazda truck fuel tank when I replaced its sender), but remember - I'm in the Arizona desert. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Copy Hot Arizona 🤣
Yeah, I guess the temperate northwest and ever-present marine layer we've got here in SEA treats cars differently... 🌥️☁️🌧️🌧️
Cusser wrote: |
J-Gaz. wrote: |
Awesome Cusser - this is great to know.
I may just add one as well.
When you resurrected yours had you run into an issue with gunk in the steel fuel line in the tunnel? Or did it not really need to be addressed? |
No, did not try to, or need to, clean the steel fuel line running through the tunnel.
And there was no rust or particles in my fuel tank either (or in my 1988 Mazda truck fuel tank when I replaced its sender), but remember - I'm in the Arizona desert. |
_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7304 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Yes, I have a picture showing the swollen "channel" next to a new one somewhere in my gallery....good luck finding it!! _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1349 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:44 am Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Clean or replace tank and its screen, blow out main line to engine with compressed air, replace all the soft lines and filter. A friend and I just did that to his 69, it acted the same way, rusty tank, screen was partially plugged, they get that way if they sit to long especially in humid climates with out a full tank or properly treated one. _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:56 am Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Sounds like the list I was just making.
Appreciate it.
Was the job you and your friend did fairly easy?
How long did it take?
Did you guys measure the Fuel pressure too?
Mine was stored for a number of years not really driven, but I always fogged the motor and treated the gas.
I probably could have done a better job.
The guy that owned it before me I don't think kept very good care of it. He was the local postmaster and got it to drive to work when it snowed - but we had a few years back then with no real snow, so it sat.
That was in the late '90s to early 2000s before I got it in 04. I'm not sure when he actually bought it though.
When I had it, I spent most of my time learning about and rebuilding the motor - making lots of mistakes along the way. Still isn't perfect, but she wants to run most of the time - accept for this stinking hiccup/power loss.
RWK wrote: |
Clean or replace tank and its screen, blow out main line to engine with compressed air, replace all the soft lines and filter. A friend and I just did that to his 69, it acted the same way, rusty tank, screen was partially plugged, they get that way if they sit to long especially in humid climates with out a full tank or properly treated one. |
_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Challenge accepted.
Honestly, I can't tell from the photo that the old Bakelite has a smaller ID than the new one - but if that's what fixed your problem, and it's $5 bucks, could be worth doing regardless.
I appreciate the info.
Does anyone have any more documentation of the bakelite swelling? Seem's like if it was common (Even if it takes 40 - 50 years, or only happens with ethanol in the gas) there's be some more info on it. I've posted another link from the forum down at the bottom, but that's all I've found.
Maybe that's all we need... But they talk about the outside swelling and putting pressure internally on the pushrod, not necessarily the ID shrinking. Same end result, regardless.
vamram wrote: |
Yes, I have a picture showing the swollen "channel" next to a new one somewhere in my gallery....good luck finding it!! |
vamram wrote: |
Update/Successful conclusion:
Here's what happened w/the pump. I had the correct size rod. What happened is that I have a manual fuel cut-off valve in the line between the fuel pump and the carb bowl. I forgot to OPEN this valve before restarting the car w/the replacement pump. There was enough gas in the bowl to fire up the car and run it just long enough for pressure to build up in the line as the pump was trying to push gas to the bowl and BOOM! The seals that are in the pump blew (loudly) and gas poured out the mid-point of the pump until the car stalled a second later.
As to my ORIGINAL problem - here's the original (factory I believe) VW bakelite guide for the fuel rod on the left, the replacement one on the right.
Clearly the hole in the old one is significantly smaller than the new one.
I got a new mechanical pump and gaskets, installed it using the new bakelite and have since driven about 200 miles (including 60-miles round trip w/the wife to a Doobie Brothers concert last night! Those old rockers have aged well and sounded great!) w/*ZERO* stalls or stumbles due to fuel delivery issues. I'm pretty sure the old bakelite swelling was the cause of the problems I'd been having over the last month.
BTW - Busdaddy, I bought the Holley electric pump and have a relay ready to use w/it, but decided to keep it as a spare and continue running w/the mechanical pump for the time being.
Thanks all for your suggestions in resolving this problem!
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Here is the link and quote I found relating to the Fuel Pump Bakelite:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=707315
sb001 wrote: |
Did everyone here just simply forget about the problem with the fuel pump rod's bakelite guide swelling inside the case as the engine heats up?? Or do you all just simply not believe it?
Link
Link
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_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Pulled my Fuel Pump Stand this evening, and it is tight coming out.
I don't have much of a shop, but I think I'll order a new one and grind it down, leaving the original as a backup as is. _________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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I tried to drive it last weekend
I thought I could get one slow in-town drive in while I waited for parts.
I was wrong.
and had to get towed home... It just wouldn't run.
I got the Fuel pump bakelite stand from Westcoast metric earlier this week, along with gaskets, and finally had the chance to drop it in.
The Fuel pump bakelite stand dropped right in like on the Chris Valone video and mimicked the Bug Me video posted above.
Sadly the car didn't take to the repair.
Wouldn't start or run at all. Same as this last weekend.
There may be something more sinister at play.
Can't check the fuel pressure if it's not running...
Any ideas on what to check next?
Appreciate it. _________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:25 am Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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I pulled the fuel pump and it appears to be weeping the tiniest bit of fuel where the pushrod would engage the pump.
I guess the only next thing I can do is replace the Fuel Pump and see where that gets me before I have to take it to the shop.
Any recommendations where I can pick up a quality fuel pump?
Regardless I think I've got to get the steel fuel line cleaned and add a tank filter. _________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51149 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:49 am Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Great - thank you!
_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31378 Location: Hot Arizona
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J-Gaz. Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 613 Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:12 am Post subject: Re: testing a manual fuel pump |
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Appreciate this Cusser.
I just ordered the short generator fuel pump from JBugs (Made in China),, the one that was on there was the Brosal with the curved output.
The Brosal was on there when I bought it in 2005 or so... and I reused it when I rebuild the motor a couple of years back.
When I replaced the fuel pump stand a couple of weeks ago, it seemed like there was a little fuel coming through the fuel pump down onto the tab that the pushrod pushes, so I just replaced the pump. It was one thing I could do to try to isolate the issue.
Now I think my fuel pump is like yours.
Both short pushrod styles though designed to fit generator cars.
Installed it late last night.
I also swapped the fuel filter.
Haven't fired it up yet.
We'll see if that does the trick, if not... to the shop I guess - I can't do much here in the space I've got here.
Cusser wrote: |
This is what I use on my 1970, with factory 108mm fuel pump pushrod.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/import-direct...&pos=3
Folks will cringe about a made-in-China fuel pump, but it does have clips on the horizontal pivot rod WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT !!! I've used this over 3 years now.
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_________________ 1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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