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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Fuchs on a 78 bay Redrilling process pictures |
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Although my original post dealt with axle length and hub center caps, I said I would post pics of the redrilling process.
Here we go
Machined rotor coated with Break-in protective film.
Drill guide cut on water jet.
Drill guide mounted to rotor with original studs and nuts.
Lining up drill with guide and securing rotor to drill press table.
Drilling new pattern
Cutting 14x1.5 threads. Needed 2 taps.
Testing thread depth.
Cutting original nuts in half.
First cut nut, installed backwards. These nuts ensures that the rotor will not move in relation to the hub when driving.
All nuts installed and studs trimmed.
Test fit on wheel.
Temporarily mounted to check runout of tire...dead on, no wheel hop.
Rears are done the same but without the original studs. Due to the fact that the rear flanges have a notch that intersects one hole, I welded the notch. This results in a hardener portion of the drilled hole. It is very hard on the tap. That is why I bought 2 taps. It is the last hole to thread.
Waiting for studs and nuts to arrive.
ACC-C10-6692 - 14MM WHEEL HARDWARE KIT STUDS/NUTS/WASHERS - FOR EMPI 8 SPOKES - ALL 4 WHEELS
CDN $67.34
C13-70-2704 - CHROME LOCKING 1/2 IN ACORN NUTS 4 PC SET
CDN $14.24
C13-9515 - WHEEL STUD KIT 14MM X 1/2 IN 4PC SET
CDN $9.75
Taps $31.00
Guide $28.00
Total cost. $150.33 Canadian
I know that this topic has been asked before and believe me I have done an extensive seach but have not come up with the answers I need.
I am installing a set of 6x15 Fuchs on my 78 Westy. The suspension is all stock. I have decided that redrilling is the only way this will happen. I removed the rear studs to check for tire clearance. When I hold the rim with the tire mounted against the drum I have just enough clearance to ensure the tire does not hit. Therefore spacers and adapters will not work. My problem is that the axle shaft and nut stick out past the wheel center cap.
What are you guys doing to correct this?
Are you machining the wheel hub/bolt flange down to allow the nut to go on further? Are you trimming the nut? Doing both? Does the axle have enough threads to allow the nut to sit in further and still have the required clamping force on the hub?
I have not tried a test fit on the front. Should I expect the bearing caps to give me the same problem?
Please do not tell me to go with adapters or give your opinions about the pros and cons of adapters vs redrill, or how you feel about the way Fucks look on a bus, UNLESS you have information to help solve my problem.
Thanks in advance.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone
Last edited by dan macmillan on Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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VDubTech
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 9142
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Why not just get the Fuchs that are already 5X112 bolt pattern? |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| VDubTech wrote: |
| Why not just get the Fuchs that are already 5X112 bolt pattern? |
I said helpful information to my problem. Are new rims with the different pattern going to clear the axles with the caps installed?
To answer your question. I bought a set of 4 original rims in excellent shape with new tires for $600.00
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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fireman9027
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: East Coast FL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Fuchs on a 78 bay |
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| dan macmillan wrote: |
I know that this topic has been asked before and believe me I have done an extensive seach but have not come up with the answers I need.
I am installing a set of 6x15 Fuchs on my 78 Westy. The suspension is all stock. I have decided that redrilling is the only way this will happen. I removed the rear studs to check for tire clearance. When I hold the rim with the tire mounted against the drum I have just enough clearance to ensure the tire does not hit. Therefore spacers and adapters will not work. My problem is that the axle shaft and nut stick out past the wheel center cap.
What are you guys doing to correct this?
Are you machining the wheel hub/bolt flange down to allow the nut to go on further? Are you trimming the nut? Doing both? Does the axle have enough threads to allow the nut to sit in further and still have the required clamping force on the hub?
I have not tried a test fit on the front. Should I expect the bearing caps to give me the same problem?
Please do not tell me to go with adapters or give your opinions about the pros and cons of adapters vs redrill, or how you feel about the way Fucks look on a bus, UNLESS you have information to help solve my problem.
Thanks in advance. |
I think Cip1 sells center caps that are a bit taller than the ones that you have, so that you can use your wheels and the taller center cap covers the axle shaft and nut. |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I am looking for a good answer as I too have a nice set of Fuchs laying around and want to make em work.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| pb24ss wrote: |
| dan macmillan wrote: |
| VDubTech wrote: |
| Why not just get the Fuchs that are already 5X112 bolt pattern? |
I said helpful information to my problem |
Don't like the help? Ask for a refund. Oh. It's free around here. More often than not you get way more than you pay for. Have a little patience and maybe you'll get some good answers. |
My appologies. If you read my original post you will notice that I do not have a problem redrilling. My question relates to the axle length. VDubTech's suggestion relates to bolt pattern.
When I searched the Samba for related information I found that many people do not answer the questions posted but instead offer irrelavent information. I would like this to stay on topic. Axle clearance not bolt pattern.
Still no one has offered any information to verify that the aftermarket 5x112 rims will clear the axles with the caps installed. If they do clear the axles then it would be relavent.
Vintageyacht writes
| Quote: |
| hmm, get wheels that fit. The nerve of some folks dispensing such unhelpful answers to problems. |
This is not helpful information if they do not clear the axles.
Thank you to fireman9027,busdaddy for the tips.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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VDubTech
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 9142
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Here ya go, this took all of 3 seconds to find on the CIP1 website.
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| We now offer this beautiful wheel to fit directly onto your 71-79 VW Bus. These wheels will add a the finishing touch to your Bus or Van. These wheels have been specially designed to clear the center front hub and rear axle nuts without any problems. All 911 style center caps fit properly and will also clear the center hub. 5x112mm bolt patterns. Center caps and hardware are sold separately. For center caps, see ACC-C10-6603 or ACC-C10-6604. These wheels are machined to use tapered acorn style mounting nuts or bolts. See C13-70-2862. Wheel backspacing 3-3/4 inch. |
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7094
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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what about custom centre caps? if the axle is past the centre opening in the wheel there is no other solution that i can think of.
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
| what about custom centre caps? if the axle is past the centre opening in the wheel there is no other solution that i can think of. |
Thanks Scott. I think that is what I will have to do. Do you stock any plain extended caps that fit original Fuchs wheels and are the correct diameter that I can attatch my original caps to?
CIP1's Canadian website does not have a lot of selection of wheels and anything that might fit is out of stock and roughly tripple what I paid for originals.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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Vintageyacht
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2008
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Tahoe, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This is not helpful information if they do not clear the axles. |
They?.....meaning the Fuchs w/ the 5x112 pattern clearing the axles?
I have a set of Audi A6 alloys for my Bay Window. I had the center bores clearanced at the machinist to clear the width of the front hub and found two things, 1. the hubs still get in the way of the caps by the length of the hub, probably your issue too 2. The lugs are short, they get a lot of thread, but my butt would be puckered the whole time I drove it thinking they might shear off. So, I would need to get 914 lugs and pull all my hubs and punch the new lugs in. A lot of work for a look. So..... after a month of work etc. Im likely going to sell mine, and find some wheels that fit. If someone has used the 5x112 reproduction Fuchs and can verify that the caps will fit over the hubs after they are installed, I would be interested in knowing that info as well. |
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7094
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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i've never seen an extended cap for fuchs. the repro fuchs work, i have seen them. to me they look like crud however, nothing like a real fuchs 911 wheel.
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fusername
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2006
Posts: 2897
Location: Boston MA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: |
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you should post some pictures of the clearence issues you have, so we can try and judge where you can getaway w/ removing material.
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Need something custom bent up? shoot me an email, maybe we can make it work!
FORSALE: Thrust cut T4 and 1.9 main bearings
| obnoxiousblue wrote: |
| Maybe Ben Pon's ghost comes and vomits NOS stampings for your bus, but not mine! |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Vintageyacht wrote: |
| Quote: |
| This is not helpful information if they do not clear the axles. |
They?.....meaning the Fuchs w/ the 5x112 pattern clearing the axles?
I have a set of Audi A6 alloys for my Bay Window. I had the center bores clearanced at the machinist to clear the width of the front hub and found two things, 1. the hubs still get in the way of the caps by the length of the hub, probably your issue too 2. The lugs are short, they get a lot of thread, but my butt would be puckered the whole time I drove it thinking they might shear off. So, I would need to get 914 lugs and pull all my hubs and punch the new lugs in. A lot of work for a look. So..... after a month of work etc. Im likely going to sell mine, and find some wheels that fit. If someone has used the 5x112 reproduction Fuchs and can verify that the caps will fit over the hubs after they are installed, I would be interested in knowing that info as well. |
Yes, that is correct. They refers to the Fuchs w/5x112 pattern.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone
Last edited by dan macmillan on Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| fusername wrote: |
| you should post some pictures of the clearence issues you have, so we can try and judge where you can getaway w/ removing material. |
I will post some either tonight or early tomorrow.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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fusername
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2006
Posts: 2897
Location: Boston MA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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cool, that should really help. if you only need to trim so much off the nut, say halfway down the castleation (I would check the spelling, but I don't think that is even a word.) you should be fine w/ the nut still being plenty strong. remember, the first 3 threads carry over 70% of the clamping force, with it going down exponentially from there.
_________________
[email protected]
Need something custom bent up? shoot me an email, maybe we can make it work!
FORSALE: Thrust cut T4 and 1.9 main bearings
| obnoxiousblue wrote: |
| Maybe Ben Pon's ghost comes and vomits NOS stampings for your bus, but not mine! |
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akscooter
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2008
Posts: 528
Location: Eastern Washington
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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I myself would not run a rim that has been modified outside the manufacture for one good reason, unless you have the spec sheet on the rims you may be setting your self up for the exploding rim and tire syndrome, most of these rims are computor designed with an overage on the load but when you start to take away from the equation without any engineering knowlege, your setting your self up for disaster I would just go with what has already been proven don't try to reinvent the wheel. Just think you have all your friends. maybe even your beloved family, your doing 60 on a left hand curve and gee your front right tire just exploded because the rim gave way, tell me where your going to end up?
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fusername
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2006
Posts: 2897
Location: Boston MA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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most likely in the ditch.
I am leaving it up to Dan to decide if it is going to be strong enough. Offroad folks redrill drums all the time and really punish those things, so if done right I would THINK he could pull it off safely, but I have not looked into it. If he is just assuming that it will be strong enough, then thats his and whomever rides with hims problem.
and on that point, are you gonna reweld the old bolt holes? and if you have the money, there may be blank drums available out there...
_________________
[email protected]
Need something custom bent up? shoot me an email, maybe we can make it work!
FORSALE: Thrust cut T4 and 1.9 main bearings
| obnoxiousblue wrote: |
| Maybe Ben Pon's ghost comes and vomits NOS stampings for your bus, but not mine! |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| akscooter wrote: |
| I myself would not run a rim that has been modified outside the manufacture for one good reason, unless you have the spec sheet on the rims you may be setting your self up for the exploding rim and tire syndrome, most of these rims are computor designed with an overage on the load but when you start to take away from the equation without any engineering knowlege, your setting your self up for disaster I would just go with what has already been proven don't try to reinvent the wheel. Just think you have all your friends. maybe even your beloved family, your doing 60 on a left hand curve and gee your front right tire just exploded because the rim gave way, tell me where your going to end up? |
Not a problem. I am not altering the rim. I am redrilling the bolt pattern on the rotors and rear wheel flanges/drums. We are discussing narrowing the axle nut/shortening the end of the axle/machining some off the outer end of the wheel flange where the axle nut secures the flange / or longer wheel caps. Redrilling and using studs is just as safe as the stock setup.
They make multi pattern rotors for Beetles with threaded holes. The extra holes are not an issue. People run adapters that are a far weaker setup and we do not hear of any horror stories.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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Vintageyacht
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2008
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Tahoe, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Dan,
Try joining this site and searching there, I bet one of these guys have done what your trying to do. They are a bit more inventive and creative over in europe. Even though they focus on early bays, the 5x112 were on 71 and 72, and theres tons of them on that site. I know for a fact that one of them has documented his conversion to 944 discs / hubs, and another to 911 so he could run trubo twists. May be of some help.
http://forum.earlybay.com/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=fuchs+bay |
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