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Double Relay Explained. . . In Color!
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ScottK
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
please people, don't let the thread get out of control.

wildthings, dan, this has nothing to do with your vehicles or your expertise.

it's about some cool drawings that colin posted. i think they're cool, yes. if the drawing of the relay has the wrong number of terminals or a wire in the wrong spot i'm sure colin will fix it.


Well said Scott.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have also been dinking around with these double relays and have never understood them as well as I do today after following the drawings.

So far so good Colin!! Applause
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keifernet
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScottK wrote:
germansupplyscott wrote:
please people, don't let the thread get out of control.

wildthings, dan, this has nothing to do with your vehicles or your expertise.

it's about some cool drawings that colin posted. i think they're cool, yes. if the drawing of the relay has the wrong number of terminals or a wire in the wrong spot i'm sure colin will fix it.


Well said Scott.


Agreed... if anyone want's to argue about the post and get tit for tat personal with each other then do it with PM's.
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dan macmillan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to appologize to everyone for my behavior recently and say I am happy that this thread has been returned. Hope Santa is good to all.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone.
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enodios
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone still sees this thread, I had used the simplified diagrams to build a replacement double relay for under 20 dollars and now my bug is dead and a mechanic won't touch it. I am pretty sure that the resistors or diodes that are missing are in fact, incredibly important.

The engine starts, runs for a few seconds and then cuts out, any advice?
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enodios wrote:
If anyone still sees this thread, I had used the simplified diagrams to build a replacement double relay for under 20 dollars and now my bug is dead and a mechanic won't touch it. I am pretty sure that the resistors or diodes that are missing are in fact, incredibly important.

The engine starts, runs for a few seconds and then cuts out, any advice?

I guess you could try a real relay, does the fuel pump run when you depress the AFM flap when the key is on?
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Kirk
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow I dont think the idea behind his drawing was for someone to use it to build a relay.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enodios wrote:
If anyone still sees this thread, I had used the simplified diagrams to build a replacement double relay for under 20 dollars and now my bug is dead and a mechanic won't touch it. I am pretty sure that the resistors or diodes that are missing are in fact, incredibly important.

The engine starts, runs for a few seconds and then cuts out, any advice?


She's for sale. Just feed her.

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how about buying a genuine double relay.
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airkooledchris
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you did it wrong.

lots of bug guys use two relays to make a replacement for their beetle. check the beetle forum for tips on how to do it correctly.
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Scapod
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Double Relay Explained - In Color! Reply with quote

Hey Colin,
As a near 100% know nothing faced with the (to me) daunting task of installing an electrical fuel pump for the 2.0 litre going in my '73 type 2; your post and diagrams are outstanding; especially when compared to the half-help I've been getting everywhere else.
Thank you for contributing your time and labour.
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blues412002
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: non-FI electric fuel pump Reply with quote

I am desirous of having a double relay to control my fuel pump. I do not have FI, just regular carbs. All of the connections regarding FI would be superfluous for me. Will this set-up still work for me and how would I wire it? I have difficulty understanding relays. Thanks!
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just do it this way?

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11380
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blues412002
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Randy!
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kokopelli1973
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks again for this informative initial post. I have a '77 bay with a 2L FI engine. i'm hoping to wrap my head around the wiring as the fuel pump is running with the keys out of the ignition!?! any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kokopelli1973 wrote:
thanks again for this informative initial post. I have a '77 bay with a 2L FI engine. i'm hoping to wrap my head around the wiring as the fuel pump is running with the keys out of the ignition!?! any thoughts?


Trace the wires from your fuel pump. One must be going to a 12v source in your case, but it shouldn't!! Find it, then evaluate your bus wiring to see where it deviates from the stock wiring diagram. Sometimes it's a simple connection out of place, sometimes you'll spend a week with spools, strippers, and crimp connections.
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kokopelli1973
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take a look after work, thank you
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Double relays Reply with quote

I can't afford to buy a relay once a month for this VW.

Hi anyone I know this is an old, very old thread, but I seem to be losing double relays here 2 in so many weeks. Some one welded on my 79 S/B while at a shop and it has caused havoc with electronics. I have replaced a double relay, AFM, alternator. I had gotten the car running before replacing the alternator.

Now , the car won't start again. I am back to square one testing the relay. I downloaded the trouble shooting guide. but no luck on getting it started. Can I use the home made double relay as shown here with a direct #50 connection to the CSV and TTS? has anyone else used this hook up with any success?

Any help is greatly appreciated,

John
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you can, but I doubt it will fix the problem. Consider: there is no reason the relays should fail, unless they're driving something which is pulling way too much current.

I'd do an analysis on the 'failed' relays and determine (1) which relay is failing, and (2) what is the failure mode. Bench testing is easy if you have a 12 volt source (battery, battery charger, power supply, etc.). You should be able to apply 12 volts to each coil, activate each relay individually and observe them pull in. Inspect the contacts on each relay and look for signs of failure or overheating. Post the results.

I'm betting there's an intermittent short in the system somewhere...

p.s. here's a corrected schematic from the first page showing a double relay equivalent built from standard cube relays. Note my version has two diodes. The second diode protects the first diode from back EMF from the relay coil. The diodes allow the starter and the airflow meter to both drive the fuel pump relay, but they keep the airflow meter from trying to drive the starter:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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01capevwnut
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:00 am    Post subject: Double relays Reply with quote

Thank you , thank you. I am now armed with new, and better info. I am headed into the garage after 1000hrs this morning. Last night I fell asleep with the D/R on my bed. I think it is giving me night mares. The last two D/R had no current at the pump terminal # 88d, I have a good ground at 85 and power at 88z & y. As per the tech manual I printed off this site I check the AFM w/my meter and it is within the spec.

The car ran last Friday but had a non charging Alternator, a new Alt was $ 78.00 from Amazon or $24 for the brush/ reg from the same so replace new it was.

I dropped a running motor to replace the Alternator w/ a new unit, as well as the clutch. Now it won't start. I will go through and re inspect all vacuum hoses again and follow your instructions as well.

During the restoration of this running S/B I found jumpers up front: pump to the lights, I repaired that and just hooked up the wire at the term in fuse block that was disconn.
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01capevwnut
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:23 am    Post subject: Double relays Reply with quote

Dumb question, does that lower diode go to the bl/rd fuel pump line?
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