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Double Relay Explained. . . In Color!
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

If you have a double relay with wires attached directly to the posts (as opposed to the white wiring block connector), this diagram is for you. This diagram covers only the six-prong side of the double relay. To see which prong is which number on your relay, flip the relay over and you will see labels in the black plastic. Flip it back to see the actual prongs and you will see what this diagram shows. I learned that there are only five wires coming in and that the sixth prong just gets a jumper from another prong. I hope this helps someone. I am not showing a diagram for the white wire portion of the double relay since my connector block is still intact for that side and all you have to do is line it up and plug it in. I am glad that my wires happened to be original and the colors matched the chart that Dodger Tom sent me.


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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

Thanks very much. Wire colors matched the wiring chart, thankfully. I will write up a diagram showing what I did with my situation sometime.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

j40 is the double relay.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/baybus_77-78_FuelInjectionWiring.jpg
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

I have five wires and six prongs.
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

It is not the white wire side. It is the colored wire side. Can you help match?

Wires are numbered:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looking to match with prongs in BOTTOM section of this pic. Start with large in top center as A and go around clockwise to F.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

All the white wires have little teeny weeny numbers on them, the colored ones are shown on the diagram and the terminals on the relay are all numbered, between Colin's drawings and the wiring diagram it's not impossible to figure them out.

Edit: here's the diagram: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/baybus_77-78_FuelInjectionWiring.jpg
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

Also, the side of the DR that has direct spades is the one with six spades. The one with the white block is the five spade side and that is fine. I have more than one wire off and also, I only have five wires for six spades. This is why I need help.

Thanks
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

Help!

For my double relay on my 78 bus, one side plugged in with the white block but the other side was just directly connected with individual spades. Can someone point me to some thing that tells me what wire goes to what number on the block? I have seen how it is all explained but that assumes that there are two white connector blocks and I only have one.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

With that kind of relay construction what can happen is that the solder joints go "dry" with vibration and carrying current, if the contacts are not too burnt.

Dry joints : Re-flowing the solder can fix that.

Look hard at the solder round solid metal leads - there is often a shadowy black ring where the joint has failed.

It may be hidden by the coating on the back side of the board - scrape the coating off, re-solder and re-paint with polyurethane varnish.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

strange. Mine came apart without any cutting. The sides just had to be spread apart a little to take the cover off. It was a genuine Bosch too. If a diode is bad it can be replaced, and if the points are burned they can be filed.

Thanks for the photos.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

Cool, thanks! That’s helpful for diagnosing weird shit that seems to be popping up more frequently Smile

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! Reply with quote

My OEM double-relay failed so I cut it open and took pictures of the guts so people can see what it looks like inside that li'l black box Think

Note: The removed case is in the correct orientation in each picture.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Double relays Reply with quote

I stayed away from the car for a few days to give myself a break. I got the car back together Monday the 30th. (little things I was testing) I found no gas going to or through the fuel rail. So I checked my lines they were inverted. Six more times of getting under the car (I put them on wrong each time, I can only imagine I was laying down at a different angle each time when I went under the car.) Anyway my foolishness. Got the car running. I will test those extra relays and post some findings as time permits.

Thanks to all who shared,

John
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:51 pm    Post subject: double relays Reply with quote

If nothing obvious noted, run your test above again, this time with +12 on terminals 88Z (relay section A) and 88Y (relay section B), and a test light from 88A / 88B (relay section A) or 88C / 88D (relay section B) to ground. When the appropriate relay activates, the lamp should light.[/quote]

Ok will do tomorrow on the testing.

I am beside myself I took a running engine out now it won't start. I was quite cocky when it came to starting and trouble shooting this kind of problem. I am down to using the Muir book I went through the tune up procedure. I re pulled the distributor re set TDC. All for not. I must be missing something. I am fried, tomorrows starts the new attack.

JV signing off...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So: relay #3's diode is probably blown, making it a candidate for permanent retirement.

As far as the other two go, next you want to inspect the contacts on the relays to see if any are burnt. If you can get the relay cover off, make a note of any obvious damage.

If nothing obvious noted, run your test above again, this time with +12 on terminals 88Z (relay section A) and 88Y (relay section B), and a test light from 88A / 88B (relay section A) or 88C / 88D (relay section B) to ground. When the appropriate relay activates, the lamp should light.

If you want to get crazy about it, here's a test fixture circuit for bench testing double relays:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by telford dorr on Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
Yes, you can, but I doubt it will fix the problem. Consider: there is no reason the relays should fail, unless they're driving something which is pulling way too much current.

I'd do an analysis on the 'failed' relays and determine (1) which relay is failing, and (2) what is the failure mode. Bench testing is easy if you have a 12 volt source (battery, battery charger, power supply, etc.). You should be able to apply 12 volts to each coil, activate each relay individually and observe them pull in. Inspect the contacts on each relay and look for signs of failure or overheating. Post the results.

I'm betting there's an intermittent short in the system somewhere...

p.s. here's a corrected schematic from the first page showing a double relay equivalent built from standard cube relays. Note my version has two diodes. The second diode protects the first diode from back EMF from the relay coil. The diodes allow the starter and the airflow meter to both drive the fuel pump relay, but they keep the airflow meter from trying to drive the starter:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Relay test:

relay 1: 85 to G, power to 86c I get a click, then power to 86 i get a click.

relay 2: the same as relay 1

relay 3: 85 to G, 86C to power I get a click, NO click on 86
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
Is that 76-79 FI Type 1?

I was trying to figure out where I could get that hose fromt he oil fill to the S boot, but have not found one. Anyone know?



This is the correct hose to use that is fitted for the job part # 181 129 651. Airhead parts has it :

https://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/air-...81129651-c

Bughaus has it also:
http://www.bughaus.com/air_cleaner_hose_-_181129651c.htm

One is a dollar cheeper than the other. Hope this helps I will be replacing mine to stay stock.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Double relays + hose from oil fill neck to s boot Reply with quote

Relay test:

relay 1: 85 to G, power to 86c I get a click, then power to 86 i get a click.

relay 2: the same as relay 1

relay 3: 85 to G, 86C to power I get a click, NO click on 86

Now for anyone who needs a oil breather hose:

Is that 76-79 FI Type 1?

I was trying to figure out where I could get that hose fromt he oil fill to the S boot, but have not found one. Anyone know?

This is the correct hose to use that is fitted for the job part # 181 129 651. Airhead parts has it :

https://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/air-...81129651-c

Bughaus has it also:
http://www.bughaus.com/air_cleaner_hose_-_181129651c.htm

One is a dollar cheeper than the other. Hope this helps I will be replacing mine to stay stock.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: double relays Reply with quote

You know what? That is an excellent and intelligent argument with regards to supporting the parts suppliers & industry at the same time, not to mention the fact of the car remaining as close as close as possible to original for the future generation of collectors.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Double relays Reply with quote

01capevwnut wrote:
That is the motor on my 78 Super beetle. The AFM and filter box was not yet installed. I wanted to get a clear photo in case anyone wanted to copy/make it for their beetle. Some one else thought I had a bus, but no such luck on my part, it's a super beetle.

Airhead parts has the correct hose, but again not wanting to spend the money on the part + shipping I saw $1.48 for the making of my part better than the $25 for the part + shipping.

My apologies to those who want to stay pure. I painted it black after the fitting in the photos and it looks great. I did not want to lose this opportunity of the photos thinking I had something here so that is why it is white in the posted photo. This is the only mod I have made to this vehicle. Otherwise it is bone stock. I have had three FI S/Bs and all were missing this correct hose. P/Os substituted straight hose in stead of the real Mccoy. This is usually a mess that falls off at the most inopportune of times. I see this hose replacement as permeant fix that will never need correction again. I have photos of all the pipe length and elbows should anyone care for them.

Again Thanks for all the help to all who have answered my questions on the relays and of course I will post my findings on the relays tested once I get back into the garage after the 16th.

I completely understand where you are coming from and applaud your enginuity in fabricating a replacement. But at the same time once stuff like that starts what will get hacked next?, that seemingly expensive hose lasted for almost 36 years so if you look at it on a $ per year basis it's almost free. Adding things like that often interferes with other components and sooner or later things will have to be bent or moved to get along with it, stuff like that disturbs the VW mojo that worked on milliions of those cars for many years, good temporary fix but I'd still get the real hose when I can.
Another point to consider is how many other 38 year old cars still have the parts support yours does? Yes your crafty fix does the job but in 10 or 20 years when it's time to make it as original as possible will Airhead or similar suppliers still be around and still have the part?, support the sellers who are making an effort to produce a quality correct part because they may not last without you. If you find the price of repro VW parts hard to swallow you should shop for parts for makes and models with much lower production numbers, it's essentially the same pricing but with another zero added, jump on the parts when you can.
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