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sun-bug74 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020 Posts: 254 Location: Gloucester, MA
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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If you have a double relay with wires attached directly to the posts (as opposed to the white wiring block connector), this diagram is for you. This diagram covers only the six-prong side of the double relay. To see which prong is which number on your relay, flip the relay over and you will see labels in the black plastic. Flip it back to see the actual prongs and you will see what this diagram shows. I learned that there are only five wires coming in and that the sixth prong just gets a jumper from another prong. I hope this helps someone. I am not showing a diagram for the white wire portion of the double relay since my connector block is still intact for that side and all you have to do is line it up and plug it in. I am glad that my wires happened to be original and the colors matched the chart that Dodger Tom sent me.
_________________ 1978 Bay Window Bus, AC Vanagon Motor, Daily Driver |
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sun-bug74 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020 Posts: 254 Location: Gloucester, MA
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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Thanks very much. Wire colors matched the wiring chart, thankfully. I will write up a diagram showing what I did with my situation sometime. _________________ 1978 Bay Window Bus, AC Vanagon Motor, Daily Driver |
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dodger tom Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013 Posts: 1272 Location: Central Coast, CA, but we're all still Ukrainian
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sun-bug74 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020 Posts: 254 Location: Gloucester, MA
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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I have five wires and six prongs. _________________ 1978 Bay Window Bus, AC Vanagon Motor, Daily Driver |
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sun-bug74 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020 Posts: 254 Location: Gloucester, MA
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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It is not the white wire side. It is the colored wire side. Can you help match?
Wires are numbered:
Looking to match with prongs in BOTTOM section of this pic. Start with large in top center as A and go around clockwise to F.
_________________ 1978 Bay Window Bus, AC Vanagon Motor, Daily Driver |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51153 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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sun-bug74 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020 Posts: 254 Location: Gloucester, MA
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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Also, the side of the DR that has direct spades is the one with six spades. The one with the white block is the five spade side and that is fine. I have more than one wire off and also, I only have five wires for six spades. This is why I need help.
Thanks _________________ 1978 Bay Window Bus, AC Vanagon Motor, Daily Driver |
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sun-bug74 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020 Posts: 254 Location: Gloucester, MA
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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Help!
For my double relay on my 78 bus, one side plugged in with the white block but the other side was just directly connected with individual spades. Can someone point me to some thing that tells me what wire goes to what number on the block? I have seen how it is all explained but that assumes that there are two white connector blocks and I only have one.
Thanks. _________________ 1978 Bay Window Bus, AC Vanagon Motor, Daily Driver |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2745 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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With that kind of relay construction what can happen is that the solder joints go "dry" with vibration and carrying current, if the contacts are not too burnt.
Dry joints : Re-flowing the solder can fix that.
Look hard at the solder round solid metal leads - there is often a shadowy black ring where the joint has failed.
It may be hidden by the coating on the back side of the board - scrape the coating off, re-solder and re-paint with polyurethane varnish. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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strange. Mine came apart without any cutting. The sides just had to be spread apart a little to take the cover off. It was a genuine Bosch too. If a diode is bad it can be replaced, and if the points are burned they can be filed.
Thanks for the photos. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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Cool, thanks! That’s helpful for diagnosing weird shit that seems to be popping up more frequently
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Air_Cooled_Nut Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004 Posts: 3040 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Double Relay Explained. . . In Color! |
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My OEM double-relay failed so I cut it open and took pictures of the guts so people can see what it looks like inside that li'l black box
Note: The removed case is in the correct orientation in each picture.
_________________ Toby http://www.aircoolednut.com/
Did I mention that I'm an original Darksider?
'72 VW Squareback, 2007cc, GB 5-speed, rag top; '76 VW Riviera Penthouse Sundowner 2.0L; 2015 Audi S5 Cabby w/Stage II APR; '06 Ducati Sport Classic 1000; '14 Ducati Diavel Strada
The First Invasion |
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01capevwnut Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 23 Location: Cape Coral FL.
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Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: Double relays |
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I stayed away from the car for a few days to give myself a break. I got the car back together Monday the 30th. (little things I was testing) I found no gas going to or through the fuel rail. So I checked my lines they were inverted. Six more times of getting under the car (I put them on wrong each time, I can only imagine I was laying down at a different angle each time when I went under the car.) Anyway my foolishness. Got the car running. I will test those extra relays and post some findings as time permits.
Thanks to all who shared,
John |
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01capevwnut Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 23 Location: Cape Coral FL.
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:51 pm Post subject: double relays |
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If nothing obvious noted, run your test above again, this time with +12 on terminals 88Z (relay section A) and 88Y (relay section B), and a test light from 88A / 88B (relay section A) or 88C / 88D (relay section B) to ground. When the appropriate relay activates, the lamp should light.[/quote]
Ok will do tomorrow on the testing.
I am beside myself I took a running engine out now it won't start. I was quite cocky when it came to starting and trouble shooting this kind of problem. I am down to using the Muir book I went through the tune up procedure. I re pulled the distributor re set TDC. All for not. I must be missing something. I am fried, tomorrows starts the new attack.
JV signing off... |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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So: relay #3's diode is probably blown, making it a candidate for permanent retirement.
As far as the other two go, next you want to inspect the contacts on the relays to see if any are burnt. If you can get the relay cover off, make a note of any obvious damage.
If nothing obvious noted, run your test above again, this time with +12 on terminals 88Z (relay section A) and 88Y (relay section B), and a test light from 88A / 88B (relay section A) or 88C / 88D (relay section B) to ground. When the appropriate relay activates, the lamp should light.
If you want to get crazy about it, here's a test fixture circuit for bench testing double relays:
_________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Last edited by telford dorr on Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:59 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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01capevwnut Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 23 Location: Cape Coral FL.
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Yes, you can, but I doubt it will fix the problem. Consider: there is no reason the relays should fail, unless they're driving something which is pulling way too much current.
I'd do an analysis on the 'failed' relays and determine (1) which relay is failing, and (2) what is the failure mode. Bench testing is easy if you have a 12 volt source (battery, battery charger, power supply, etc.). You should be able to apply 12 volts to each coil, activate each relay individually and observe them pull in. Inspect the contacts on each relay and look for signs of failure or overheating. Post the results.
I'm betting there's an intermittent short in the system somewhere...
p.s. here's a corrected schematic from the first page showing a double relay equivalent built from standard cube relays. Note my version has two diodes. The second diode protects the first diode from back EMF from the relay coil. The diodes allow the starter and the airflow meter to both drive the fuel pump relay, but they keep the airflow meter from trying to drive the starter:
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Relay test:
relay 1: 85 to G, power to 86c I get a click, then power to 86 i get a click.
relay 2: the same as relay 1
relay 3: 85 to G, 86C to power I get a click, NO click on 86 |
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01capevwnut Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 23 Location: Cape Coral FL.
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01capevwnut Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 23 Location: Cape Coral FL.
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: Double relays + hose from oil fill neck to s boot |
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Relay test:
relay 1: 85 to G, power to 86c I get a click, then power to 86 i get a click.
relay 2: the same as relay 1
relay 3: 85 to G, 86C to power I get a click, NO click on 86
Now for anyone who needs a oil breather hose:
Is that 76-79 FI Type 1?
I was trying to figure out where I could get that hose fromt he oil fill to the S boot, but have not found one. Anyone know?
This is the correct hose to use that is fitted for the job part # 181 129 651. Airhead parts has it :
https://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/air-...81129651-c
Bughaus has it also:
http://www.bughaus.com/air_cleaner_hose_-_181129651c.htm
One is a dollar cheeper than the other. Hope this helps I will be replacing mine to stay stock. |
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01capevwnut Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 23 Location: Cape Coral FL.
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Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: double relays |
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You know what? That is an excellent and intelligent argument with regards to supporting the parts suppliers & industry at the same time, not to mention the fact of the car remaining as close as close as possible to original for the future generation of collectors. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51153 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Double relays |
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01capevwnut wrote: |
That is the motor on my 78 Super beetle. The AFM and filter box was not yet installed. I wanted to get a clear photo in case anyone wanted to copy/make it for their beetle. Some one else thought I had a bus, but no such luck on my part, it's a super beetle.
Airhead parts has the correct hose, but again not wanting to spend the money on the part + shipping I saw $1.48 for the making of my part better than the $25 for the part + shipping.
My apologies to those who want to stay pure. I painted it black after the fitting in the photos and it looks great. I did not want to lose this opportunity of the photos thinking I had something here so that is why it is white in the posted photo. This is the only mod I have made to this vehicle. Otherwise it is bone stock. I have had three FI S/Bs and all were missing this correct hose. P/Os substituted straight hose in stead of the real Mccoy. This is usually a mess that falls off at the most inopportune of times. I see this hose replacement as permeant fix that will never need correction again. I have photos of all the pipe length and elbows should anyone care for them.
Again Thanks for all the help to all who have answered my questions on the relays and of course I will post my findings on the relays tested once I get back into the garage after the 16th. |
I completely understand where you are coming from and applaud your enginuity in fabricating a replacement. But at the same time once stuff like that starts what will get hacked next?, that seemingly expensive hose lasted for almost 36 years so if you look at it on a $ per year basis it's almost free. Adding things like that often interferes with other components and sooner or later things will have to be bent or moved to get along with it, stuff like that disturbs the VW mojo that worked on milliions of those cars for many years, good temporary fix but I'd still get the real hose when I can.
Another point to consider is how many other 38 year old cars still have the parts support yours does? Yes your crafty fix does the job but in 10 or 20 years when it's time to make it as original as possible will Airhead or similar suppliers still be around and still have the part?, support the sellers who are making an effort to produce a quality correct part because they may not last without you. If you find the price of repro VW parts hard to swallow you should shop for parts for makes and models with much lower production numbers, it's essentially the same pricing but with another zero added, jump on the parts when you can. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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