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vdubdan Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2004 Posts: 151
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: Full Flow a 36hp Engine |
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I am trying to build an engine with a 36hp case but wanted to make it with a full flow oil pump. Does anyone know where I can obtain this setup? Thanks for the help. |
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Julio Iniguez Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2004 Posts: 130
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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You can call Gene Berg Ent. Their the ones that suplied the parts and did the full flow machining on my 36hp. I believe they are offering a kit for the 36hp. |
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Unkl Ian Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2008 Posts: 288 Location: Near Toronto
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Saw the 36hp sump on Berg's site, didn't see anything else.
I gather the 36hp oil pump is different than the 1600 pump.
Don't know exactly what is different. |
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36hplandspeedracer Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 847 Location: Ivins, Utah
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: 36hp Oil Pump question |
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Yes Ian, stock and heavy duty oil pumps designed to fit 1200 to 1600cc VW air cooled engines fitted with the pre-1971 designed flat cam gear(can be identified by the 3 rivets or bolts holding the gear to the cam)can be installed in a 36hp engines with only minor and easily accomplished upgrades.
To install, remove the 4 6mm studs in the case holding the pump in place and replace with longer 6mm studs or bolts that compensate for the added thickness of the later pumps(The pump body outside the case is thicker to allow for longer pump gears in a variety of lengths that determines the added capacity and thus oil pumping ability of the heavier duty pumps). You can use either pumps designed for 6mm or 8mm studs since the pump is centered in the case by the pump body and the studs only hold it in place. There is no need to switch to 8mm studs even if using an 8mm pump. The only cautions are to be sure to use the 6mm hole style pump cover and outer pump cover gasket when using 6mm studs and be sure the pump body is centered symetrically in the case to align the oil passage holes before torquing the seal nuts.
There are only two negatives that can come from this refinement. First the longer gears inside later stock and heavy duty pumps require more horsepower to turn thus cutting down on available horsepower to the wheels, although this is very minor. Secondly, the early primitive baffling inside the 36hp case above the pump does little to reduce splash up the oil breather/generator tower and you can get increased oil loss. Speedwell USA once offered a baffle that fits inside the 36hp tower that will help reduce splash and is a good upgrade for any high perfomance 36hp engine. Hopefully it is still available!
The oil pumps designed for the post 72 and later 4 rivet/bolt dished cam gears will not fit since the shaft on the driven pump gear is longer to reach the dished cam gear.
We installed a heavy duty pump on our first 36hp Challenge motor but returned to the stock configuration pump to retain maximum available horsepower for our racing efforts. Every little bit of power helps when you do not have a lot to begin with.
Hope this is helpful.........
Burly |
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grueni Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2008 Posts: 582 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:08 am Post subject: |
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another point is to use a 21mm with 6mm holes . i use this pump and have all the time when the engine is hot 1bar per 1000 RPM up to 4 bar.
also depends on how long your extra circle will be. the 17mm pump is not the best choice for a front oil cooler. |
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gatorwyatt Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2002 Posts: 1867 Location: Clearwater Fl.
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:31 am Post subject: |
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pm me if any one has a baffle for sale for 36hp...i have been struggling with the exact problem of having the oil slinging up the generator stand and causing oil to wick out and under run out to the pulley on the generator and sling everywhere....i would even take a early 25hp baffle _________________ www.blastserv.com
wanted:
RHD Barndoor floor mat..reproduction is fine |
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Unkl Ian Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2008 Posts: 288 Location: Near Toronto
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:34 am Post subject: Re: 36hp Oil Pump question |
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36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
Hope this is helpful.........
Burly |
Excellent, thank you. |
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: Re: 36hp Oil Pump question |
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36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
Yes Ian, stock and heavy duty oil pumps designed to fit 1200 to 1600cc VW air cooled engines fitted with the pre-1971 designed flat cam gear(can be identified by the 3 rivets or bolts holding the gear to the cam)can be installed in a 36hp engines with only minor and easily accomplished upgrades.
To install, remove the 4 6mm studs in the case holding the pump in place and replace with longer 6mm studs or bolts that compensate for the added thickness of the later pumps (The pump body outside the case is thicker to allow for longer pump gears in a variety of lengths that determines the added capacity and thus oil pumping ability of the heavier duty pumps). You can use either pumps designed for 6mm or 8mm studs since the pump is centered in the case by the pump body and the studs only hold it in place. There is no need to switch to 8mm studs even if using an 8mm pump. The only cautions are to be sure to use the 6mm hole style pump cover and outer pump cover gasket when using 6mm studs and be sure the pump body is centered symetrically in the case to align the oil passage holes before torquing the seal nuts. |
interesting thought, i had not considered using an 8mm stud pump on a 36hp engine before.
the only thing i would somewhat disagree with is just allowing the 8mm pump to "float" on the 6mm studs and hoping that the pump housing alignment was ok and would stay that way. as you mentioned, it is important that the oil pump driven gear is in alignment with the camshaft. i would be concerned that the pump housing could shift since the holes for the 8mm studs are larger than the 6mm studs. i know there is clamping force from the case studs and the cover, but i'd rather be safe than have my pump housing shift and it chews up the end of a cam or the pump, or both.
VW used a case insert when putting a single port cooler on a later case. it fits in the 8mm hole in the case, and takes up the space to make the 6mm studs of an early cooler fit "snugly" rather than just having the 6mm cooler studs "floating" in the 8mm case holes. i'm wondering is such a spacer could be used in this type of oil pump application. you'd really only need two, at opposite ends of the pump. i don't think having spacers in all 4 pump holes would be necessary.
i can't find the part number right now, but i have several of these original VW spacers, they are #41 in this pic.
http://www.kuebel-klub.de/skripte/bildkatalog.php?page=2 _________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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swanlakers Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 370 Location: Lost in space
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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replace te 6mm studs with the 6mm/8mm studs used for oil cooler conversions.
(but its really the case that locates the oil pump, thats why you need oil pump puller tool- the case holds it tight.) _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/56ghia/cover.jpg |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2348 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Caution! Factory 8mm studs are on different centers!!! |
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Jacks wrote: |
Caution! Factory 8mm studs are on different centers!!! |
another interesting point. so i guess i would like to see pics of an 8mm pump installed on a 36hp engine. Burly, can you provide that info? _________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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vdubdan Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2004 Posts: 151
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: 36hp Full Flow Oil |
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Just to let you know, here is what I am trying to accomplish and certainly welcome your advice. I am building a period correct engine for my 1957 Oval. I am working with a 36hp case, Porsche cam, Porsche Pre A crank, pistons, jugs, and heads. I am using Solex 32 PBIC's and the correct Knecht air breathers. I will be using the full flow Fram Oil Filter located on the fan shroud. I have the engine tapped and complete except for the oil pump. This combination will get me from 1200CC to about 1485CC(74X80). Right now I am also trying to make the Porsche/VW engine tin to fit together. Pictures will follow.
Dan |
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Unkl Ian Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2008 Posts: 288 Location: Near Toronto
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Shouldn't be a problem using a common full flow cover on a 36hp pump. |
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36hplandspeedracer Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 847 Location: Ivins, Utah
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I do not have any installed photos. Bville Tom might and I will try and talk with him tonight.
Burly |
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36hplandspeedracer Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 847 Location: Ivins, Utah
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Spoke withBville Tom this evening and he confirmed the later model pumps fit without any special considerations other than those mentioned in my original reply.
The rear body of the pump fits so snuggly into the case, the only alignment concern is making sure the oil passages align and that the bottom case bolt is retorqued after pump installation. He just wrapped two studs(as suggested in an earlier reply) with masking tape to help with the alignment procedure. He also chamferred the case oil port hole slightly to smooth out the oil flow.
He has installed pumps up to 30mm in a 36 but found they provide too much volume and pressure resulting in uneccessary oil leaks. He also agrees with the earlier comments that a 21mm seems to be about ideal ( with minimum horsepower loss).
Since his 36hp motors are run at 6000 plus rpms for sustained distances of one mile(36hp Challenge racing), he has also modified a later 1600cc oil sump to fit the 36, dropping the oil level away from the cam and crank, not only improving available horsepower but reducing splash up into the generator tower. He indicated he will also return to a full flow oil pump cover(as he has in the past) to improve oil flow for better engine life.
Thanx Tom for sharing your experiences on this subject.
Burly |
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oval56 Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2003 Posts: 1309 Location: oktoberfest maintown
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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jes is correckt, the centers of 8mm studs ar not the same as 6mm studs for the oilpumps..
i have built my first engine, with useing 8mm studs, but i have to modifie my oilpump to get it mounted...
_________________ www.oval56.com
1956 Oval, 2364ccm typ4
1957 Oval Ragtop 1584ccm singel port modified
1950 Hebmüller, 1584ccm okrasa modified
DBK Germany!!!!!!!!!!
www.dbkvw.com |
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36hplandspeedracer Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 847 Location: Ivins, Utah
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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If you use 6mm studs or bolts, no modifications will be required!
Burly |
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oval56 Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2003 Posts: 1309 Location: oktoberfest maintown
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
If you use 6mm studs or bolts, no modifications will be required!
Burly |
sure, that was the result of my experience after the first conversion also _________________ www.oval56.com
1956 Oval, 2364ccm typ4
1957 Oval Ragtop 1584ccm singel port modified
1950 Hebmüller, 1584ccm okrasa modified
DBK Germany!!!!!!!!!!
www.dbkvw.com |
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gatorwyatt Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2002 Posts: 1867 Location: Clearwater Fl.
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp Full Flow Oil |
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vdubdan wrote: |
Just to let you know, here is what I am trying to accomplish and certainly welcome your advice. I am building a period correct engine for my 1957 Oval. I am working with a 36hp case, Porsche cam, Porsche Pre A crank, pistons, jugs, and heads. I am using Solex 32 PBIC's and the correct Knecht air breathers. I will be using the full flow Fram Oil Filter located on the fan shroud. I have the engine tapped and complete except for the oil pump. This combination will get me from 1200CC to about 1485CC(74X80). Right now I am also trying to make the Porsche/VW engine tin to fit together. Pictures will follow.
Dan |
the fram oil filter is not a full flow it is considered a bypass system and will not give you a same result as coming out of the pump and filtering rather than the oil coming from the oil pressure switch.once you install the full flow plate on the oil pump you have lost your period correct theory _________________ www.blastserv.com
wanted:
RHD Barndoor floor mat..reproduction is fine |
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Art Thraen Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004 Posts: 478 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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This is a pic of Justins land speed engine that is full flow'd,, http://blackline57.com
Works great. But the fittings are not the same as a 1600, they are smaller at the return line..
Last edited by Art Thraen on Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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