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nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: |
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When VW Engineered the T-4 oil cooler they did not change the pump. T-1 or T-4 same pump. Therefore they were trying to gain max cooling using the stock pump. Any bigger they would have had to go to a larger pump. So does it cooler better I would say yes, for sure. Compare it to a T-1 cooler, what is it like 20% more rows. Like Glenn said he did not notice a difference, ok, but with only being slightly larger, it is going to be hard to see a difference. Does it make a difference like I said I am sure. The question is how much do you need. For a stock car it cannot hurt. The plus side is it is a simple add on. NO long oil hoses to an expensive cooler, that can leak. An external cooler has to be in the air flow or it won't work. If you do it right you can be talking serveral hundred bucks, with the braided lines. If it does not cool properly tHen you are talking Electric fans.
When VW used the T-4 cooler in the T-4 they went to a 90 C Thermostat. That allowed the T-4 which runs much cooler then a T-1 to get to running temp. THis was in the VW plan, it was not a simple, hey lets put in a bigger cooler. This was thought out.
Funny I tell guys if they are building basic stock T-4 conversion to use the T-1 cooler . The reason being the T-4 runs so cool it maybe better for the daily driver to get to running temps.
So if you are running a basic stock T-1 engine or a bit larger run the T-4.
IF the engine is larger and running hot then you have to look at the big picture of your engine. What's your compression, your timing, exhaust etc. 20% more row on a T-4 cooler will only do so much..
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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My understanding after reading Jake's posts is that since there's no additional air moving through the cooler there's no additional heat transfer.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Blaubus
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2003
Posts: 5153
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott Novak wrote: |
| dansvans wrote: |
| many people have .................. blocked fan shroud spouts, causing this warmup failure: when your thermo flaps are closed, the fan's air must be bypassed to your heater boxes, otherwise the air is forced thru the partially opened flaps of the half warm engine, keeping it from warming all the way. the T1 VW engine is supplied with a long-vane high-pressure fan. this means that the fan doesnt just "spin its wheels" when it encounters restricted flow. instead it builds pressure. many people refuse to think of the heater box as part of the cooling system as well as being an exhaust part. |
So are you claiming that using the 73 thing fan shroud, which has no heater ducts, will cause engine warm up problems?
Scott Novak |
some are not going to see any warm up difficulties. depends on how cold the winter air is and how hot your engine runs. my engine runs almost scary cool in my bus. after a hard hiway run, i can put my finger on the block and leave it there for 30 seconds without screaming- in the summer. a NY summer, but still. this is not the type of engine you would run at 0F without a bypass.
other people run a GEX time bomb on 4 wheels. no comparison.
anyway, answer the question yourself- i explained the theory well enough that you know what i am getting at. |
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Scott Novak
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2004
Posts: 1586
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| dansvans wrote: |
| many people have .................. blocked fan shroud spouts, causing this warmup failure: when your thermo flaps are closed, the fan's air must be bypassed to your heater boxes, otherwise the air is forced thru the partially opened flaps of the half warm engine, keeping it from warming all the way. the T1 VW engine is supplied with a long-vane high-pressure fan. this means that the fan doesnt just "spin its wheels" when it encounters restricted flow. instead it builds pressure. many people refuse to think of the heater box as part of the cooling system as well as being an exhaust part. |
| Scott Novak wrote: |
| So are you claiming that using the 73 thing fan shroud, which has no heater ducts, will cause engine warm up problems? |
| dansvans wrote: |
some are not going to see any warm up difficulties. depends on how cold the winter air is and how hot your engine runs. my engine runs almost scary cool in my bus. after a hard hiway run, i can put my finger on the block and leave it there for 30 seconds without screaming- in the summer. a NY summer, but still. this is not the type of engine you would run at 0F without a bypass.
other people run a GEX time bomb on 4 wheels. no comparison.
anyway, answer the question yourself- i explained the theory well enough that you know what i am getting at. |
It's a theory and until proven, just that. The question is does it cause any significant change in warmup up time. I live in Minnesota and drive my Beetle with the Thing fan shroud in the winter. The thermostatically operated air control flaps in the fan shroud are correctly adjusted.
I have not noticed any warm up problems compared to the stock fan shroud. But I will look at the engine the next time I drive it and see how long it takes for the flaps to open.
| Glenn wrote: |
| My understanding after reading Jake's posts is that since there's no additional air moving through the cooler there's no additional heat transfer. |
I thought I remember Jake claiming that the air wasn't being evenly distributed to the T-4 oil cooler and that was why he didn't think it cooled as well. Do you remember if Jake had actually done any tests to prove this, or was this just a theory that the T-4 cooler didn't wrk any bettter?
Scott Novak |
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borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4539
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott Novak wrote: |
| I thought I remember Jake claiming that the air wasn't being evenly distributed to the T-4 oil cooler and that was why he didn't think it cooled as well. Do you remember if Jake had actually done any tests to prove this, or was this just a theory that the T-4 cooler didn't wrk any bettter? |
i couldn't find anything on his site. just keep mentioning his name, maybe he'll come around.
in the mean time: continue bickering. it's cheap entertainment.
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
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Location: Durango, CO
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nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Moved: T1 vs T4 oil cooler |
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Its kinda funny that the same "solutions" keep popping up every once in a while.
- Using a type 4 cooler in a stock type 1 housing will ONLY aid a little cooling to the oil when the fan speed is ABOVE approx. 5000 rpm. The reason is as Raby states, that the air gets slowed down through the cooler and gets saturated and cannot relieve the cooler any extra heat.
The type4 DTM is a little different because the amount of air to the cooler is METERED for the type 4 cooler. That´s why it works.
If you want extra oil cooling capacity on a type 1 engine with type 1 cooling, use a thermostatic controlled external cooler.
T |
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nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Moved: T1 vs T4 oil cooler |
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We can't say the stock T-1 fanhousings are bad -- They are just marginal, doing it's job from below zero to above 100f not an easy task for an aircooled engine. It does cover all the bases. Trying to make it have more hp can put it over the edge.
I have found it to be perfect in T-4 it a cool running engine I know several or 125 hp
Alstrup do you know of any larger, I think 150 HP
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Moved: T1 vs T4 oil cooler |
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| nextgen wrote: |
We can't say the stock T-1 fanhousings are bad -- They are just marginal, doing it's job from below zero to above 100f not an easy task for an aircooled engine. It does cover all the bases. Trying to make it have more hp can put it over the edge.
I have found it to be perfect in T-4 it a cool running engine I know several or 125 hp
Alstrup do you know of any larger, I think 150 HP |
It depends on a lot of things, such as: what heads, what ignition, what car. It is not so much the potential hp of an engine, but more the actual load of an engine I have 150-160 hp type 4´s with CSP upright cooling with type 1 cooler. they run nice and cool on normal to nippy driving. Sustained 85+ mph and it reaches its limit. If you install such an engine in a pre 67 car and do nothing, it will not be able to handle that kind of power for long. If you install the same engine in a Super Beetle there will be no problems up to about the beforementhioned load. |
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nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Moved: T1 vs T4 oil cooler |
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I thought you were the guy with the 150 hp but was not sure. CSP is the same as the my Cali-Style so it is a T-1 fanhousing. I agree about the componants like the heads and ignition. Actaully what I said about the T-1 fanhousing being marginal for for cooling . Well when you get in the 150 hp range with the T-1fanhousing on a T-4 in the 150 hp area range, the T-1 fahousing gets into marginal range. You have to be careful.
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