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mattcfish
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Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Bellingham, WA
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 Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: Low oil pressure at idle. Only 12,000 miles on new rebuild. |
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Am I cursed! After a 1.5 hour 70mph hour drive the other day my 85 Vanagon 2.2L (upgraded 1.9, still using Digijet) started showing a low oil pressure red light at idle. It was only 30 degrees out at the time and the water temp was normal. Oil and Water were full. It now does this at idle whenever the beast is up to operating temp.
I've got an oil pressure gauge kit on order. What are the chances that the problem is...
A. just a bad sensor
B. Bad pressure relief valve on filter or engine
C. Defective oil pump
D. Rod bearings are going (Don't make me replace those now!)
E. Main Bearings are going (kiss this one goodbye!)
More history..
This engine has been cursed from initial fire up. The engine seized after idling for only 10 minutes. It turned out my rebuilder didn't get one of those wrist pin clips in all the way. It got caught between the piston and the cylinder. Need I say more.
I got my builder to buy me a set of GoWesty Wiseco 2.2L pistons and barrels. I put them in and was real happy with the performance. I've had an ongoing rough idle situation though and have replaced all of the ignition and Injection components trying to solve the mystery. I've managed to go from one type of bad idle to another, but haven't quite nailed down the real cause yet. If the engine is going South after only 12,000 miles then I may never get the chance to unravel the riddle.
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75 BMW 2002
76 BMW R90S
85 Vanagon with 2.2L upgrade |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10077
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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What was the extent of the "rebuild"? Full bottom end, or just the P&L and heads?
Was the OP switch replaced then? What is the P/N of the switch (or the pressure setting, stamped on the body?)
Did it get a new OP relief valve spring? I have yet to remove a used one that was not shortened and weakened by age and fatigue. The valve actually influences OP thru most phases of operation, cold and warm, not just relieving excess pressure when cold.
Get a gauge on 'er and get some numbers, that's for sure your next step.
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mattcfish
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| What was the extent of the "rebuild"? Full bottom end, or just the P&L and heads? |
Full bottom end (supposedly)
| tencentlife wrote: |
| Was the OP switch replaced then? What is the P/N of the switch (or the pressure setting, stamped on the body?) |
Looked new. Can't get the # right now. What should minimum pressure be at idle?
| tencentlife wrote: |
| Did it get a new OP relief valve spring? I have yet to remove a used one that was not shortened and weakened by age and fatigue. The valve actually influences OP thru most phases of operation, cold and warm, not just relieving excess pressure when cold. |
I don't know, I only assumed it would be changed. Can't be sure about the oil pump either.
| tencentlife wrote: |
| Get a gauge on 'er and get some numbers, that's for sure your next step. |
I'm not really looking forward to actually seeing the pressure.
The builder said he used 1.9 bolts on the rods. If he used 2.1 bolts that had stretched, wouldn't there be a lot of noise or other symptoms?
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75 BMW 2002
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85 Vanagon with 2.2L upgrade |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
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Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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They don't stretch. They break.
I doubt your problem is there.
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mattcfish
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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I read on an earlier post that you recommend the CB Performance Maxi oil pump. I think you recommended the T-1 pump #1796 for wasserboxers. Is type 1 the only option in aftermarket for the watercooled vanagon?
www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=195
How about the "Aircooled" Schadeck pumps with 30mm gears? Edit: after further research it look like only 26mm gears will work. Any thoughts?
www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECO0002&cartid=0206200917048218
Thanks
Matt
Matt,
I would much prefer you put your question on the open forum, where others can comment and everyone can learn from it. But I will give you a brief answer.
Any oil pump intended for a 1971+ Type1 engine will fit the wbx when the wbx has the OEM cam. That is a long-reach pump to fit the 4-rivet dished cam.
If you're rebuilding and using an aftermarket cam, then the cam will be the pre-'71 style 3-rivet shallow gear, so the pre-'71 short-reach pump must be used. At CB this is the #1795 Maxipump1.
The CB Maxipumps are mostly just a Schadek 26mm pump body, but CB adds a keyed driven gear. That is the strong feature of that pump and why I prefer it.
The 30mm high-volume pumps of any maker can be fit in the wbx case if you clearance the engine mounting bracket, and select the appropriate pump for the cam the engine has (long or short reach). I don't recommend doing the 30mm pump because in my testing it provides little to no real benefit. This is also the consensus of the aircooled engine building crowd; unless you have things that utilise the extra flow, like piston squirters or a turbine, what the 30mm pump offers won't be used. Instead it will cycle oil needlessly past the pressure relief valve, which takes work and heats the oil, and the oil will be aerated more than necessary, which also isn't good. Stick with the size appropriate to the engine, at least until you slap on that turbo. If you have low OP, address the real causes, which are overhot oil, increasing bearing clearances, or both.
Chris
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Thanks Chris.
I can cut and paste that post to the forum if you want. I just thought it was old territory. It is strange that key ways aren't standard on VW oil pumps.
Somethings up with the 2.2 with only 11,500 on it.
Like I said before, the oil light is flashing at idle when it gets to operating temp.
It's barely getting to 40 degrees outside. I haven't got the oil sender pressure gauge wired up yet, but I have a gut feeling that somethings wrong and the likely candidate is the oil pump.
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85 Vanagon with 2.2L upgrade |
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mattcfish
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I hooked up the oil pressure gauge yesterday. My fears are confirmed. After idling for about 15 minutes the oil pressure dropped to the just above zero range. At 2000rpm at operating temp I get about 25psi. Pressure keeps climbing past 50psi at 4000+rpm. I've only got 2000 miles on the last oil change. I used a Bosch filter. The oil is still pretty clean looking.
It's possible that my builder used an old pump or the pump was damaged by metal shavings in the oil (My builder didn't get one of the clips in all the way that holds the wrist pin into the piston. Major damage to one piston and barrel during the first 20minutes of operation. He paid for my new 2.2L top end. I installed it). It's strange how quickly the pressure symptoms came on. No red light at idle for over 10,000 miles and then it starts and does it every time I idle.
I've got a CB Maxi I pump on order and a new relief spring. God, I hope it's not the Main bearings. Anyway to rule out bearing issues before I spend several unpleasant hours replacing the pump for nothing?
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| If you are seeing 50 psi on a hot engine, the relief may be stuck a little bit open. This would give you poor oil pressure at idle and to much at full rev. |
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mattcfish
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Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| If you are seeing 50 psi on a hot engine, the relief may be stuck a little bit open. This would give you poor oil pressure at idle and to much at full rev. |
Would that just involve the spring, or do think the piston is stuck?
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85 Vanagon with 2.2L upgrade |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| mattcfish wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| If you are seeing 50 psi on a hot engine, the relief may be stuck a little bit open. This would give you poor oil pressure at idle and to much at full rev. |
Would that just involve the spring, or do think the piston is stuck? |
I would be from a stuck piston. Remove the plug and spring and then see if you can get the piston to come out. |
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mattcfish
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Posts: 565
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I would be from a stuck piston. Remove the plug and spring and then see if you can get the piston to come out. |
Dumb question: how do you unscrew the plug? It's really on there! Heat?
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tencentlife
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Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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BMFSD.
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mattcfish
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: |
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I got the plug off on my "spare parts" engine. I'll do the one on the car when my new spring and seal get here. A large thick washer worked well as a screw driver. The spring and piston just dropped right out. I noticed that a special piston puller is sold for VW's.
Is it usually necessary to use one on a Wasserboxer?
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tencentlife
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Never yet.
Sticking of that valve is hypothetically possible, but even in the hundreds of aircooleds I've rebuilt that has been very rare. Minor piston scoring was normal to see in those, but seldom bad enough to stick. Meanwhile, in every single wbx I've dug into, the valve has fallen out as it should, free of damage. That's the difference full-flow filtration makes. I don't even stock replacement pistons, as I have so many good ones. I always put in a new spring, though.
Have you tried a Mahle or Mann filter on there? The Bosch isn't the greatest, but more importantly it may have the wrong bypass pressure. That is the reason some filters work well and others starve the wbx for OP. The OEM-spec filters actually bypass more oil at a lower pressure, which makes them worse as far as filtering goes, strictly speaking, but they're the right match for this oiling system.
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Last edited by tencentlife on Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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?Waldo?
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Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| BMFSD. |
I've carefully used a pipe wrench on the outer perimeter before as a last resort. It buggers up the plug, tho and can dimple the sealing surface a bit. 
Andrew |
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tencentlife
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Posts: 10077
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| tencentlife wrote: |
| BMFSD. |
I've carefully used a pipe wrench on the outer perimeter before as a last resort. It buggers up the plug, tho and can dimple the sealing surface a bit.
Andrew |
If you're that desperate, here's what works every time for me without gnawing on that plug (this is a moot point anyway for matt, he has his off, but for future readers....).
Lift the rear of the van an inch or two, take your BMFSD and hold it engaged in the slot of the plug while you build up wood blocks under the end of the handle, until you can lower the van onto it and have part, not all, of the weight of the vehicle resting on the BMFSD. Then grip the BMFSD handle with a visegrips, or use a wrench if you have nice screwdrivers that have a hex under the handle. Twist. It will break free.
On the bench, I come at it with one of those $5 handheld impact drivers and its widest flat bit. Gets it loose every single time.
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
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Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
Never yet.
Sticking of that valve is hypothetically possible, but even in the hundreds of aircooleds I've rebuilt that has been very rare. Minor piston scoring was normal to see in those, but seldom bad enough to stick. Meanwhile, in every single wbx I've dug into, the valve has fallen out as it should, free of damage. That's the difference full-flow filtration makes. I don't even stock replacement pistons, as I have so many good ones. I always put in a new spring, though.
Have you tried a Mahle or Mann filter on there? The Bosch isn't the greatest, but more importantly it may have the wrong bypass pressure. That is the reason some filters work well and others starve the wbx for OP. The OEM-spec filters actually bypass more oil at a lower pressure, which makes them worse as far as filtering goes, strictly speaking, but they're the right match for this oiling system. |
Chris:
Do you usually replace with OEM VW springs? And this is the one you shim, also? Remind me what you use for a shim.
Also, (and maybe this should be a separate thread) does anyone have any experience/ empirical data on aftermarket oil filters? I almost always dissect the removed filter and have found a world of difference inside. I know there is a MOPAR related website that is pretty extensive research.
They pretty much said Purolator was very near the top.
I know I have taken Bosch ones apart and they looked almost as bad a Fram. I also had an Italian built. US branded one that seemed to be of very high quality.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
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tencentlife
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Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
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I use an OEM spring I get from VanCafe. In every case I've found the used spring I remove is 2-3mm shorter than the new replacement.
I don't shim the new springs, no. That's a band-aid I suggest to users who've gotten turned on when they discover the 30mm oil pump. Take your pick: 4 hours and $40, or 10 minutes and 10cents (oh, wait, that's me...). Call it the tencent fix, but it works as well or better than all that other trouble.
A standard 1/4" flat washer is what you use. Stamped steel washer stock is 1/16" ( about 1.5mm) thick. That raises hot OP about 4-5psi.
I would suggest replacing the spring with a fresh one before doing the washer fix, but if you're in a hurry, or just want to experiment, you probably have a 1/4" washer laying around.
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mattcfish
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Joined: October 24, 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
Never yet.
Have you tried a Mahle or Mann filter on there? The Bosch isn't the greatest, but more importantly it may have the wrong bypass pressure. That is the reason some filters work well and others starve the wbx for OP. The OEM-spec filters actually bypass more oil at a lower pressure, which makes them worse as far as filtering goes, strictly speaking, but they're the right match for this oiling system. |
I've got Mann filters on order with the spring. This is the first time I've used a Bosch. It would be nice if that's all it is.
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mattcfish
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Posts: 565
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
Never yet.
Have you tried a Mahle or Mann filter on there? The Bosch isn't the greatest, but more importantly it may have the wrong bypass pressure. That is the reason some filters work well and others starve the wbx for OP. The OEM-spec filters actually bypass more oil at a lower pressure, which makes them worse as far as filtering goes, strictly speaking, but they're the right match for this oiling system. |
I've got Mann filters on order with the spring. This is the first time I've used a Bosch. It would be nice if that's all it is.
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tencentlife
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
Also, (and maybe this should be a separate thread) does anyone have any experience/ empirical data on aftermarket oil filters? I almost always dissect the removed filter and have found a world of difference inside. I know there is a MOPAR related website that is pretty extensive research.
They pretty much said Purolator was very near the top.
I know I have taken Bosch ones apart and they looked almost as bad a Fram. I also had an Italian built. US branded one that seemed to be of very high quality.
Al |
Al, the conclusion I've come to about the filter issue is that although the quality of filtration is a important, it's the bypass pressure that matters most.
Firstly, I wish I would never see another person talk about whether a filter has a drainback valve or a bypass valve; they all have bypasses, nearly all have drainback checks, and any engine that has the filter mounted open-side-up doesn't care about the drainback one way or another. Period.
But the pressure at which it bypasses internally determines the portion of flow that goes around the element. This doesn't mean no oil gets filtered, it means some of it goes thru the element and some of it goes around (that is the norm in engine oil filtering systems so sit back down, kiddies). The bypass valve has as much to do with the working OP of the motor as the pressure relief valve does. You can buy the very best filter available, and if it's internal bypass pressure is too high you will have lowered OP and it may be the cause of nuisance warnings. You're getting thorough filtering, but poor oil delivery.
After wondering why people have an OP light at idle when they use one filter but not another, and finally seeing the Mann listings to compare the bypass specs, this is the conclusion I've reached: you do want to use the OEM-spec filters.
But, those aren't the only ones. Another filter that has a similar bypass pressure will work just as well. But it may be hard to find the spec to compare, so that's the sticking point.
So, unless you're willing to do further research, stick to the OEM-spec oil filter. And make sure your crankcase pressure relief valve is spec (new spring).
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