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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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 Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: Official "What ignition system should I use" topic |
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OK... lets get it going.
Keep all your long winded posts here. Let's have all the theory and debates be hashed out so we don't clog a simple question like what spark plug, or coil or.... to use topic.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Last edited by Glenn on Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'll start:
For a street driven car all you need is a good quality distributor, points, Bosch Blue coil (Germany/Spain/Brazil and not Mexican) and Bosch silicone wires.
If you have a dedicated drag car then a MSD or Mallory or other high end system with rev limiters and what you should use.
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Lets discuss...
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you Glenn, this sticky was overdue. |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
| Thank you Glenn, this sticky was way too friggin loooong overdue. |
Fixed to reflect reality.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
I'll start:
For a street driven car all you need is a good quality distributor, points, Bosch Blue coil (Germany/Spain/Brazil and not Mexican) and Bosch silicone wires.
If you have a dedicated drag car then a MSD or Mallory or other high end system with rev limiters and what you should use.
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Lets discuss... |
I disagree personally.
I feel a CDI ignition (MSD brand being highly overrated IMHO) on a street car is money very well spent. Better starting, better fuel economy, and better emissions for those cars that still have to take the tailpipe sniffer test.
A 'normal' Kettering ignition (points, condenser, and coil) will work, be dependable, and is inexpensive. But, it does not have the benefits of a CDI ignition.
I know of no modern production vehicle that uses a Kettering ignition system. There's a reason for that. The gains are there, and they outweigh the cost.
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Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Eric,
I ran a Gene Berg CDI system for a number of year and suddenly it started to miss. Within a few minutes I could barely keep the engine running above 3000rpm. I got it home and replaced the CDI with a Bosch (German) Blue coil. I noticed no change in performance or fuel economy in the 2 years since I switched.
No dyno, no back to back tests, just my personal observation on a car i've driven for 34 years and 469,000 miles.
The engine is a 2180 with dual IDAs and is plenty powerful enough to notice a 5% drope in power or torque.
| Eaallred wrote: |
| I know of no modern production vehicle that uses a Kettering ignition system. There's a reason for that. The gains are there, and they outweigh the cost. |
I don't know of any modern cars that have distributors. They've all switched to COP (coil over plug) distributorless ignition that computer controlled.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| They've all switched to COP (coil over plug) distributorless ignition that computer controlled. |
The main reasons for this are probably cost/emissions related, though it could be debated all day long without conclusion. The main thing that rubs off on the aftermarket is the accuracy of a crank triggered system over a distributor- there are no mechanical moving parts to go bad, so there are no tolerances to introduce timing errors into the mix. And since the timing is controlled digitally via computer and infinitely variable, it's much easier to tweak to get what you want out of it. Datalogs are a nice thing, too.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Eric,
I ran a Gene Berg CDI system for a number of year and suddenly it started to miss. Within a few minutes I could barely keep the engine running above 3000rpm. I got it home and replaced the CDI with a Bosch (German) Blue coil. I noticed no change in performance or fuel economy in the 2 years since I switched.
No dyno, no back to back tests, just my personal observation on a car i've driven for 34 years and 469,000 miles.
The engine is a 2180 with dual IDAs and is plenty powerful enough to notice a 5% drope in power or torque.
| Eaallred wrote: |
| I know of no modern production vehicle that uses a Kettering ignition system. There's a reason for that. The gains are there, and they outweigh the cost. |
I don't know of any modern cars that have distributors. They've all switched to COP (coil over plug) distributorless ignition that computer controlled. |
Well that's no good, Glenn. Because as shown earlier in the other thread, without dyno "proof" to back it up, this info is worthless.
But to drop on one point, did you re-tune the engine between the two different ignitions? Or just remove the box and change nothing else?
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Eric Allred
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joescoolcustoms
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Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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In 1998 I built a 1970 El Camino SS Clone, except for the engine. I built a 8.7 CR 355ci engine coupled to a 350 T tranny and 3.23 rear. I ran the GM HEI ignition on it. Wife and I drove it to Myrtle Beach then from there ran the coast up into VA, then Richmond and home to Charleston WV. Plenty miles on all types of roads. I kept track of all records and fuel millage. I also would run it at the local strip running 9.02 on the 1/8 mile.
Decided to hop it up a little with just bolt ons and test it (Also used this car as a DD traveling about 450 miles per week). First thing I did was put a CDI on it with a rev limiter and two step for launching and ran a crank trigger I had laying around. No other mod. Millage did change. Power did change.
I picked up a calculated 0.03 miles per gallon and made the quickest run on it of 9.001 on the 1/8 mile (could also have been the weather conditions going from a 9.030 to the 9.001).
That was a real world test with about 15,000 miles of street and some limited drag passes. Every fill up recorded and every time sheet recorded.
So, IMO, I almost totally agree with Glenn. The dist, Blue coil and good wires may not be all you "need" for the street, but it will be all I every run on the street. Always got me home before. My current BAJA 1898 cc engine will run a blue coil and either a 019 or a 010 with good silicone wires.
Now for the track, I like the options of the MSD with the timing computer, the three step soft touch rev control, shift light trigger, the retard options for nitrous applications and the shifter compatibility. I am thinking on trying the MSD 8AL series for my drag car.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I changed the cap on the plugs from .040" to .030" and the points from .010" to .016".
Also a year after switching I changed my timing from 32BTDC to 30BTDC and found my oil temps dropped.
You know, dynos are great for numbers, but any drag racer will tell you it's not a replacement for taking it to the strip. While my car is NOT a drag car, I find comparison to previous performance works for me.
I do know if i switch from a Bosch 010 distributor to a Bosch OO9 I will notice it immediately. So if switching to a Pertronix or 8mm wires or a MSD and I don't notice a change then it's not worth it.
As I stated before we're talking about what works for 99.999% of the people out there. It's the law of diminishing returns.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Matt Cramer
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Posts: 86
Location: Covington, GA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
A 'normal' Kettering ignition (points, condenser, and coil) will work, be dependable, and is inexpensive. But, it does not have the benefits of a CDI ignition.
I know of no modern production vehicle that uses a Kettering ignition system. There's a reason for that. The gains are there, and they outweigh the cost. |
On the flip side, CDI ignitions are nearly as rare on modern production vehicles - I know some Porsches used them, but I don't think they do this now. The most common setup more closely resembles a Kettering ignition except that the points are replaced with a transistorized switch, and there's nearly always multiple coils on modern vehicles.
The multiple coils theoretically have a performance advantage - they have more dwell time to charge than a single coil. However, I suspect that the real point was removing the wear and tear associated with caps and rotors.
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Scott Novak
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Joined: October 12, 2004
Posts: 1586
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
A 'normal' Kettering ignition (points, condenser, and coil) will work, be dependable, and is inexpensive. But, it does not have the benefits of a CDI ignition.
I know of no modern production vehicle that uses a Kettering ignition system. There's a reason for that. The gains are there, and they outweigh the cost. |
| Matt Cramer wrote: |
| On the flip side, CDI ignitions are nearly as rare on modern production vehicles - I know some Porsches used them, but I don't think they do this now. The most common setup more closely resembles a Kettering ignition except that the points are replaced with a transistorized switch, |
A semiconductor switch is much cheaper than a capacitive discharge ignition system.[/quote]
| Matt Cramer wrote: |
| and there's nearly always multiple coils on modern vehicles. |
A distributorless ignition system is cheaper to manufacture than a mechanical distributor, and the maintenance during the warranty period will be less.
There were also various government mandates regarding the lifespan of the catalytic convertor that would have required more stringent maintenance of the points.
There is also a night and day difference between the simple semiconductor switch used on the early inductive switching electronic ignition systems and a variable dwell adaptive spark inductive switching ignition system which capable of determining the combustion chamber conditions and adjusting the spark energy as necessary to ensure rapid fuel ignition, along with the capability to multi-spark if the fuel mixture didn't ignite on the first spark.
Likewise there is a big difference between the the Wham Bam, Thank You Mam, hit it with a big spark capacitive discharge ignition system and an adaptive spark capacitive discharge ignition system that adjust the spark energy dependent on the combustion chamber condition. Not all CDIs are created a like. Capacitive discharge ignition systems also have their tradeoffs. Their spark duration is shorter, which is the reason that most CDIs have multiple spark capability. The need it because the fuel mixture is not always ignited on the first spark. One of the big advantages of capacitive discharge ignition systems is their ability to fire spark plugs under fouling conditions. The other is that their spark voltage can be independent on the battery voltage. As and example, a Jacobs CDI can produce full output voltage with a battery voltage as low as 7.5 volts. One of the reasons that I never considered using the Berg Ignitor was that it was sensitive to battery voltage, which indicated some serious design problems.
The reliability of the early magnetic pickup ignition modules wasn't all that great. I can remember replacing the ignition module twice in my Dad's van, and I remember plenty of other people with defective ignition modules. This was due to poor engineering and inadequate heat sinking of the coil switching transistor. and there was no excuse for it.
| Matt Cramer wrote: |
| The multiple coils theoretically have a performance advantage - they have more dwell time to charge than a single coil. However, I suspect that the real point was removing the wear and tear associated with caps and rotors. |
Multiple ignition coils are hardly necessary. Jacobs ignition coils (as well as many other aftermarket high performance brands) can easily run to over 8,500 RPM on an 8 cylinder engine and over 17,000 RPM on a 4 cylinder engine, and the spark energy is greater than a stock DIS system with multiple ignition coils. Granted you can choose to design the coil for a lower RPM ranges and increase the energy per spark.
But the automakers aren't going to give you a high performance spark. They will just try to make the ignition coils smaller and cheaper and produce only enough spark to get them by.
That's not to say that you can't make your own ignition setup using multiple ignition coils that will outperform a stock ignition system.
The typical wasted spark ignition system uses one coil firing two spark plugs in series. One spark plug is also being fired with a reversed positive polarity. This only requires 4 ignition coils on an 8 cylinder engine or two ignition coils on a 4 cylinder engine. The series connected wasted spark ignition system also only requires 1/2 the number of switching transistors for the ignition coils.
Detroit is motivated by cost more than anything else. Whatever will get the job done the cheapest. The COP idea was to eliminate ignition wire and make the ignition coils even smaller, thereby reducing cost. But there is a downside, in that the ignition coils will be subject to more vibration and heat. The COP system does fail. There is a reliability penalty in my opinion.
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vince1
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Scott Novak
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| vince1 wrote: |
| I have some problems to set the timing, (maybe my strobo lamp doesn't understand the signal). |
Some timing lights have problems with multi-spark ignition systems. Some Jacobs ignitions have a tune up mode that disable the multi-sparking. I'm using a Jacobs timing light that doesn't have any problems triggering from multi-sparking ignition systems.
| vince1 wrote: |
| I just installed a complete Pertronix ignition (billet distributor with ignitor 2 module, flame thrower 2 coil 0.6ohm, second strike ignition box). |
I'm curious why you spent all that money on the Pertronix ignition system only to strangle it with the Flamethrower II ignition coil? The 1:108 turns ratio is way too high and will limit your spark current and will also be more susceptible to spark plug fouling.
E-core ignition coils are more efficient and many of them also have a variable permeability air gapped core, which is essential for optimum ignition performance and greater resistance to spark plug fouling.
The E-Core Flamethrower HV 60104 ignition coil would probably have been a better choice. It's lower 1:93 turns ratio would have given you more spark current. Although for a distributor cap the size of the Pertronix, you would do better still with about a 1:60 turns ratio, as you can never use the full voltage capability of a 1:93 turns ratio ignition coil anyway. So you might as well use a lower turns ratio ignition coil that provides a higher spark current.
I do NOT know whether or not this 60104 coil is a variable permeability ignition coil with an air gapped core.
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Alexander_Monday
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Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 306
Location: Springfield Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn, great idea to give these discussions a home of their own.
I do enjoy reading them, but they can sure bog down a post.
While I am typing, something I have wondered.....
Anyone come out with an aftermarket ionization sensing knock retard system for boosted engines yet?
I think ionization sensing is the future of knock retard, but patent issues may be in the way currently.
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Anything that anyone does to deviate from the original designs will be made to wrench on 20 year old Yugos with Harbor Freight tools in hell. |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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They've been talking about ion sensing on the MS forums for a long time, but I don't think anyone's doing anything to further the effort.
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| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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craigman
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Location: redding
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| For me, Pertronix has never left me stranded. Just last summer, was driving with a stock motor (took my 1904 out) and had stock dizzy with points, and left me dead on the road. Condensor went out. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Odd... because when I installed a brand new 2180 and a rebuild Bosch 010 distributor, I installed a 50 year old used Bosch condenser. It's the same one i've been using since 1994. But i did decide to retire the old points that had 17,000 miles on it.
I guess i'm just lucky.
Craig, is your Pertronix 5 years old or older?
The reason I ask is i've seen the failure rate increase with the newer units while the older ones seem to fail less.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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bugninva
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Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Odd... because when I installed a brand new 2180 and a rebuild Bosch 010 distributor, I installed a 50 year old used Bosch condenser. . |
may well be that having one that old is a good thing... seems bosch's quality went the way of most formerly excellent products.... lower costs, at all costs, even quality... I've had several bosch condensors crap out and leave me on the roadside in different cars... had one fail back in november.... lucky i was in the driveway, but still had to change it in the cold.... pertronix in the bug is still working flawlessly, after all these years... <shrug>
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Eaallred
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Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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I had run points replacement modules for so long, when I had my 6V bus I had some bad running issues (backfiring, sputtering, etc). Turned out to be a bad condensor.
People tout that points and condensor is 'bulletproof', but i've never had a module fail on me, but I can put a fail on a condensor. Go figure.
I did have a module start running rough on me once, thought it was going out. When I went to remove it, the setscrew that held it down had come loose. Tightened it back down, and it was all good.
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Eric Allred
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