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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jdcool4 wrote: |
I really thinking hard on the magna spark digital for under 400$ you get coil,wires,distubutor,serial adaptor,and vacume adaptor plates. There is a little bit more information around on it as well.
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The price is good compared to the 123Tune. Also it does appear that there are few used in the US, especially among VW owners.
All that sure sounds like a bargain really. I hadn't considered that some people would not have access to vacuum ports. What carburettors are you using?
Also does anyone know what the chipset of the USB Serial Adaptor for the Magnapsark Digital is? |
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jdcool4
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2010
Posts: 98
Location: Temperance MI
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Dual Hpmx 40s I have the vacume port on the left carb.But I believe that is ported vacume and it looks like it requires manifold vacume.
Ive been on the look out for a used set up. Ive only found old adds so far that i missed. |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| donnmon wrote: |
| Pat D wrote: |
It looks like this distributor has a 5x6 timing map, 5 rpm boundaries and 6 load? The Black Box has a 21x21 configurable spark table so the resolution is much higher. We did not incorporate data logging into the Black Box in order to keep the retail cost as low as possible. |
Thanks for the info Pat.
I wonder if you could explain more about this because I have no access to the Magnaspark software as far as I can see so I am not familiar with how the spark table is manipulated.
The 123Tune has no spark table and instead uses a graph. Both the RPM graph and MAP graph has an option of up to 10 points on the curve. I am not sure how this translates to a resolution in the Magnaspark sense.
If you want to compare the 123Tune software you can download it here.
http://www.123ignition.nl/products.php?id=50&lang=eng |
With our software, you have 21 load adjustments and 21 rpm adjustments in the spark table. The rpm adjustments are good to 15K rpm and the map or load adjustments are good up to 43 psi of boost. The 21x21 spark table gives you over 400 individual cells for ignition timing.
Basically, on an typical dual carbureted aspirated engine that revs to 6000 rpm, you would be able to adjust timing every 200 rpms and every 2 kpa of load.
Tomorrow I will do a screen shot of the spark table and post it so it makes more sense.
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| jdcool4 wrote: |
Dual Hpmx 40s I have the vacume port on the left carb.But I believe that is ported vacume and it looks like it requires manifold vacume.
Ive been on the look out for a used set up. Ive only found old adds so far that i missed. |
I have never seen these for real but if they are anything like Weber 40IDFs you should be able to use the ports on the base of the carb for manifold vacuum. Looking a picture of HPMXs online it would be the innermost port on the base of the carb. Is this a screw on your carbs or a brass plug. If it is a screw you can hopefully remove it and insert the appropriate threaded thingy (in the red circle below).
I am not sure where you buy these but you can probably get then from Redline. I usually use Italian IDFs (for some reason they are one thing we can get cheap over here) and they already have them on. |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
With our software, you have 21 load adjustments and 21 rpm adjustments in the spark table. The rpm adjustments are good to 15K rpm and the map or load adjustments are good up to 43 psi of boost. The 21x21 spark table gives you over 400 individual cells for ignition timing.
Basically, on an typical dual carbureted aspirated engine that revs to 6000 rpm, you would be able to adjust timing every 200 rpms and every 2 kpa of load.
Tomorrow I will do a screen shot of the spark table and post it so it makes more sense. |
Thanks again Pat. I understand now so the 123Tune effectively has a 10 by 10 table in comparison. Half the resolution essentially.
Would love to see the software. Also would be really happy if you have any info on the chipset in the USB serial adaptor and if you could tell me what data format your logs are? I will see if I can save enough money to get one second hand over here, if I do, can I still get the software from you. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76939
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Green is the vacuum port.
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74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Green is the vacuum port.
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Sorry Glenn. Do you mean green is the manifold vaccum or the ported vacuum? I understood that the Magnaspark Digital uses manifold vacuum. I believe that the 123Tune can use both and the software in the unit smoothes the pulsing on a single vac port in dual dual setups. Can jdcoole4 use the green port with the Magnaspark Digital, if so that would save him having to use the vacuum plates in the kit. |
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Fred Winterburn
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| one of the most common ignition errors I see if folks running too much plug gap. If you don't have a coil on plug ignition, run .024-.028" plug gap. Larger is NOT WORTH IT. I can't tell you how many folks I've troubleshooted that had large gaps, which caused the spark to jump out somewhere else (path of least resistance). |
Agreed,
With a Kettering system I would not gap plugs wider than the original specs called for. Also, I would not go very wide with a CD ignition either. You are just asking for trouble every time there is a misfire where the energy isn't dissipated in the plug gap. There will be insulation break down over time if all of the high tension connections aren't in tip top shape. The result will be failed wires, rotors, coils, and distributor caps with almost no benefit in the short term due to the wider gap. I don't much believe the notion that wider is better. Certainly a certain width is required to expose enough spark and spark energy to the mixture, but diminishing returns means the gap doesn't yield returns proportional to the increase. What you get instead are misfires and less energy concentration (a larger but weaker spark) once the gap is too wide. Better to have very few misfires than fewer sparks with possibly less power per thou of gap.
For those that are interested, I'm going to be making some long duration (in CD ignition terms) universal polarity points triggered CD ignitions before the year is out. So far the prototypes are performing very well. Not a new idea, but based on my late father's (Lloyd Winterburn) patents starting from 1962. These ones I'm making are better than the old Hyland production model of the day. Low voltage at the output to save antique ignition components, a voltage/current rise time that is not so fast so that ignition components are degraded by dv/dt concerns, but fast enough to provide the benefits of CD (ability to fire through gasoline soaked, moisture soaked, or carbonned plugs) , with a long duration of up to 350 uS for the main spark event. Unlike MSD which has a very fast rise time and theoretically can degrade ignition components even if there are no misfires due to very high dv/dt. Sorry, no rev limiter on mine (do you have one now?), no tach wire (doesn't need one as it will drive a tach if the tach wire is moved to the supply side of the coil rather than the points side(reads slightly low), or it will drive a Smiths impulse tach without any changes (reads slightly high), a switch to convert back to Kettering or Off. No bells and whistles, just indestructable simple electronics designed to outlast the car while preserving the existing ignition components. The prototypes I've built so far have all had two switches to convert to 6V or 12V operation as need be. Both will trigger down to 3.5 volts to start a car with a weak battery. Production models will be voltage specific based on the feedback I've had so far. Shameless advertising, but some of you might want to know what else is available. Once production is set in the small quantities I can build these in, I'll advertise on the forum the proper way. Yeah, I'm biased towards CD, but they are most definitely not the same. Most are only good for racing and short term use and some aren't very good at all. I bought and tested an NOS Permatune recently and it is junk in my opinion yet it was used successfully on Porsches. The trigger circuit is a complex series of band aids to fix a poorly thought out concept. The power supply is very weak which is good because the trigger can't keep up anyway. Also the spark is less than 100 uS long, single polarity but fires positively which is weird, and very weak. It just goes to show you how good a CD can be, even a poor one. Fred Winterburn |
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Cptn. Calzone
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2007
Posts: 1855
Location: S>E>Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: ignition |
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Bring it on Fred
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71 westfalia
67 912 Porsche Quintilla
67 Single Cab aka my work horse |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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This is our spark table for the Magnaspark digital distributor. Our "Black Box" uses the same software so the spark table looks exactly the same. The load points from left to right on the top of the spark table are configurable based on your vacuum. The RPM points from top to bottom on the left side are also configurable based on the engines rpm capability. This table is for an aspirated engine, if it was boosted, you would see load points higher than 100kpa or zero vacuum.
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:21 am Post subject: |
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just pointing out that a 10x10 table has one QUARTER the resolution of a 20x20 table. Yes, 25%, not half. Or the 20x20 table has 4x the resolution of the 10x10.
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| just pointing out that a 10x10 table has one QUARTER the resolution of a 20x20 table. Yes, 25%, not half. Or the 20x20 table has 4x the resolution of the 10x10. |
thanks for the correction John, my maths is worse than I thought.
Looking at Pat's table and in the light of John's correction I have realised that the 123Tune does not use a table in the Magnaspark sense. The curve of RPM and MAP are separate and the 123Tune calculates the advance by adding MAP to RPM (with some transition smoothing I think) so I guess if I understand it right the calculated values are capable of being as variable as the Magnaspark just not from the 'spark table' itself. That could explain why I struggle to use all of the 10 points on either graph on the 123Tune.
I could of course be completely wrong so please do let me know. Thanks again for your time gents, it is much appreciated. |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Basically, on an typical dual carbureted aspirated engine that revs to 6000 rpm, you would be able to adjust timing every 200 rpms and every 2 kpa of load.
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Pat could you please let me know what the output resolution of the Magnaspark Digital is. Does the unit calculate and apply the advance in between the 200 rpm or 2kPa change or use the nearest figure from the spark table? |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: |
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The sample data above from a logged trip suggests that the 123Tune has changed the advance calculation 9/10 times in a period lasting roughly a second over a 98 RPM and a 2kPa change. I am waiting for confirmation from the manufacturer that this is correct. |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Heard back from the manufacturer. 123Tune calculates to 0.1 of a degree referencing at 0.98 kPa and 50 RPM resolution. |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have modeled the spark table of the 123Tune and the result is a table of over 30,000 possible variations. This means the interpolated table is much much higher than the Magnaspark.... however it seems that the CB Black box at least also has had a software update with interpolation so its effective resolution has increased.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...p;start=20
Pat please can you confirm the status of the Magnaspark/Black Box and their respective resolutions. What is the output interval for RPM and MAP on both these products? |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| donnmon wrote: |
I have modeled the spark table of the 123Tune and the result is a table of over 30,000 possible variations. This means the interpolated table is much much higher than the Magnaspark.... however it seems that the CB Black box at least also has had a software update with interpolation so its effective resolution has increased.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...p;start=20
Pat please can you confirm the status of the Magnaspark/Black Box and their respective resolutions. What is the output interval for RPM and MAP on both these products? |
The Black Box does interpolate between timing cells. The amount of interpolation on the Black Box will not be as high because our spark table is so much larger than the distributor you are referring too. Personally, I would rather have a very large spark table that I can physically put in timing values. I then can rely on the interpolation on an already perfected timing map.
As far as how fast the Black Box interpolates and to what degree, I will have to ask our software engineer after the Thanksgiving holiday and get back to you.
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
The Black Box does interpolate between timing cells. The amount of interpolation on the Black Box will not be as high because our spark table is so much larger than the distributor you are referring too. Personally, I would rather have a very large spark table that I can physically put in timing values. I then can rely on the interpolation on an already perfected timing map.
As far as how fast the Black Box interpolates and to what degree, I will have to ask our software engineer after the Thanksgiving holiday and get back to you. |
Thanks for the information Pat. Can you please confirm the status of the Magnaspark Digital also in this respect.
I think you are right about the initial spark table resolution. Probably most of the chaps on here who are into tuning and have access to the equipment to make real decisions about power will have the preference for more initial input.
123Tunes appear to be more geared for amateur vintage car enthusiasts wanting to model OE distibutors. I know from my correspondence with them that the 123Tune manufacturers deliberatly avoided spark tables in their interface and limited the number of user variables to keep the interface simple. I can see why they did this because it is often a real struggle to use all 10 points on each curve.
For that reason though, it seems the Black box at least is more useful for high performance/turbo applications (also having both higher RPM and MAP thresholds).
Thanks again for your help and happy Thanksgiving. |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:40 am Post subject: |
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400 cells for an ignition map=tuning nightmare IMO. But then I'm from the early days when you had to burn ROMs, and some factory systems only had 6 cells! 
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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donnmon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2013
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| 400 cells for an ignition map=tuning nightmare IMO. But then I'm from the early days when you had to burn ROMs, and some factory systems only had 6 cells! |
hey miniman82. thanks for the input. i am inclined to agree with that as i cannot imagine really understanding the subtle differences made over such a broad table, however i assume that with access to a dyno someone with the right skills could make full use of 400 user variables for racing/performance/turbo stuff.
that is one of the things i like about the 123Tune (though i am sure it has its limitations), the user friendly nature of it. user input is limited to two, 2D curves/graphs which means modelling OE distributors as a starting point is very straightforward. there is no spark table to speak of so in some ways a lot easier to tune. i have a few of these distributors and the quality of them is very high. the USB connection uses a native windows driver so it really is plug and play. the logging options are simple and data is logged against a timestamp so you can simply take a note of what time you went up this hill or that freeway to analyse your data.
i may be a bit biased but i get the feeling that in years to come they will become valued as original cast iron Bosch distributors have become. |
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