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michla
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:06 am Post subject: "Chevy-diameter" VW Racing Springs ? |
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It's been years since I bought them, but what's everybody using for "Chevy-diameter" VW valve springs for Type 1 Drag Racing?
I've got 1.460" diameter valve pockets in my heads and I'm looking for 420lbs over the cam nose at 1.100" lift.
K-Motion K800 springs are close, but the spring rate is higher than I need, yet diameters are close to my retainer steps. I used to use Vasco-Jet springs from Berg--they don't offer race springs right now and I wonder if Vasco-Jet is even still available anymore?
Comments welcome--I'm shopping ! |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: Re: "Chevy-diameter" VW Racing Springs ? |
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| michla wrote: |
It's been years since I bought them, but what's everybody using for "Chevy-diameter" VW valve springs for Type 1 Drag Racing?
I've got 1.460" diameter valve pockets in my heads and I'm looking for 420lbs over the cam nose at 1.100" lift.
K-Motion K800 springs are close, but the spring rate is higher than I need, yet diameters are close to my retainer steps. I used to use Vasco-Jet springs from Berg--they don't offer race springs right now and I wonder if Vasco-Jet is even still available anymore?
Comments welcome--I'm shopping ! |
If all you need is 420 lbs over the nose, don't run K800's. Find a spring that puts out 420 lbs of pressure at the lift you are looking for. I'd download the catalogs from Crower and Comp Cams and take a look at the variety of springs they offer.
FWIW, I'm running a Crower 68311 spring, which is 1.250" diameter (fits the stock VW spring pocket), it's an H11 spring (Vasco Jet material, most of the valve spring manufacturers offer springs made of this material) and puts out around 420-440 lbs over the nose. Don't use 80% of a big spring, like a K800. Find the spring that matches your application.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Something like a Crower 68390x2, puts out 440lbs at 1.150, then run a -0.050" keeper to compensate for the difference in installed height. CompCams 26921 puts out 408 lbs at 1.100. Just some examples...
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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michla
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: racing valve spings |
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STRIPPED---Hey! those are GREAT suggestions--as a matter of fact, last night after I posted that, I started looking at springs on Summit Racing and found some that come close.
Your suggestions are really handy, but the Crower springs have a 483lb/inch spring rate--pretty HEFTY for a flat-tappet cam! At my full lift of 1.100", that would translate to about 540lbs over the nose of a steel billet camshaft.... YIKES!
As for the Comp Cams springs, unfortunately the coil bind is @ 1.070, which means my full lift @ 1.100 would be a problem--not enough spring clearance at high RPM (aka: deadly).
Most of what Summit offers is for larger block engines, thus the wire diameter is thicker and coil bind is an issue. Still, I've come across a couple selections that could work:
ISKY 5005
CROWER 68405
My "research" continues! Thanks |
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michla
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: spring search |
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ROCKY--of course, you are MOST right indeed!
Hey--absolutely GREAT to hear from you!....it's been years. I used to race a Baja Bug all over the Northwest drag strips from '88-'96; we met once as I recall. Then took a Hacienda from the racing circuit (aka: "Mid-Life Crisises/men problems, etc.) moved to Alaska (near Anchorage--great race track by the way) and am up here for good now.
Hell on shipping costs, tho....<gulp> |
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joescoolcustoms
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Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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michla
What cam are you going to run? What installed height will the springs be set to? What RPM range will you run it in? What size and type of valves are you running? What rockers, pushrods and lifters?
I am courious because your are looking for a valve spring that is very close to what I am looking for, pressure wise.
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Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
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Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: spring search |
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| michla wrote: |
ROCKY--of course, you are MOST right indeed!
Hey--absolutely GREAT to hear from you!....it's been years. I used to race a Baja Bug all over the Northwest drag strips from '88-'96; we met once as I recall. Then took a Hacienda from the racing circuit (aka: "Mid-Life Crisises/men problems, etc.) moved to Alaska (near Anchorage--great race track by the way) and am up here for good now.
Hell on shipping costs, tho....<gulp> |
Sorry, I'm not Rocky...I'm just one of his more vocal customers 
_________________
| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: racing valve spings |
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| michla wrote: |
STRIPPED---Hey! those are GREAT suggestions--as a matter of fact, last night after I posted that, I started looking at springs on Summit Racing and found some that come close.
Your suggestions are really handy, but the Crower springs have a 483lb/inch spring rate--pretty HEFTY for a flat-tappet cam! At my full lift of 1.100", that would translate to about 540lbs over the nose of a steel billet camshaft.... YIKES!
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Huh? I think you need to go back and work the numbers. You are not lifting your valve 1.100". The valve stem height at max lift may be 1.100" , based on lift, length of valve, and installed height...this is the height your valve spring is compressed to; but your actual valve lift is nowhere near that value (otherwise you'd NEED double that spring pressure to control the valve).
The Crower spring I posted puts out 440lbs at full lift (the spring can be compressed to 1.150"...you would run a -0.050" keeper to ensure you don't bind the spring).
| Quote: |
As for the Comp Cams springs, unfortunately the coil bind is @ 1.070, which means my full lift @ 1.100 would be a problem--not enough spring clearance at high RPM (aka: deadly).
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The CompCams 26921 coil binds at 1.040", not 1.070"...you'd have 0.060" before coil bind which sounds great to me!
| Quote: |
Most of what Summit offers is for larger block engines, thus the wire diameter is thicker and coil bind is an issue. Still, I've come across a couple selections that could work:
ISKY 5005
CROWER 68405
My "research" continues! Thanks |
The Crower 68405 you posted installs over 0.100 lower than your valvetrain...you'd be nearly 100lb short of your goal at full lift.
I think you need to go back to the drawing board. What is your actual valve lift? What is your current installed height? Your installed height minus valve lift = spring height at full lift. That is what you're trying to match up here. Different keepers and retainers can move your installed height (and, subsequently spring height at full lift) up or down 0.050" to 0.150" to compensate for the spring and installed height to get you where you need to be. But to start with, you need to be consistent with the valvetrain spec's you are using to evaluate these springs...you are not currently using these spec's consistently.
Take a look at the spring charts on CompCams and Crower's websites (PDF files). Take a look at the different spring pressures which will result from the installed height of your set-up; e.g., if you have 0.600" lift, take a look at an installed height of 1.700" on the spring for the seat pressure, and 1.100" of spring height at your full lift...or 1.750" of installed height and 1.150" at your full lift using a -0.050" keeper to adjust for the difference in your valve stem length and the spring that you might use.
_________________
| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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Type 4 Unleashed
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Location: Aliso Viejo, CA
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michla
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Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject: more |
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STRIPPED--of course, you are right about the "lift"--I mistated myself, thinking a bit too quick for my typing, etc. In reality, my lift at the valve is .5495" with an installed height of 1.695 and fully compressed @ 1.100.
You've given rise to a question about retainer/keeper variances. I'm using a Chromemoly Berg retainer for "Chevy-diameter" VW racing springs, and I believe between the keepers and the retainers, there is no variance as to set-up height. If I were to go to aftermarket retainers keeping the dual-groove keepers against my stainless valves, what would I use? As I recall, the VW keepers are 7 degree angle, right? |
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michla
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Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What cam are you going to run? What installed height will the springs be set to? What RPM range will you run it in? What size and type of valves are you running? What rockers, pushrods and lifters? |
JOECOOL--I've got an Autocraft 9526 Billet steel drag cam, installed height 1.695", RPM 4K-8K, 44X37.5 Manley stainless. |
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michla
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Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| TYPE4--thanks, but my OD the outer spring pocket is 1.460. |
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Type 4 Unleashed
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Joined: December 13, 2004
Posts: 88
Location: Aliso Viejo, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| michla wrote: |
| TYPE4--thanks, but my OD the outer spring pocket is 1.460. |
That doesn't matter, there are spring locators & spring cups.
On Type lV heads stock spring dia. are around 1.400", and there isn't a exact replacement spring, so most people use Type 1 springs which are some what smaller, and the boss is used as the inner spring locator.
What I thought was interesting about the PSI springs, was they can be set up at almost stock installed height (1.450" & 1.550"), so then no need for longer valves, and less rocker geo issues. But the rocker bosses would have to be cut down for retainer clearance for the higher lift cams.
I've ran for years the Howards Cams 1.250" small block chevy springs with the Gene Berg 1.500" Chromoly retainers cut down to fit them. Installed at 1.800" with stock length valves. And I am always looking for better spring options.
Last edited by Type 4 Unleashed on Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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michla
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Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| and the boss is used as the inner spring locator |
4--understood, only problem with that is coil chafing as the outer spring deflects/bounces around the inner spring. The idea of spring cups make good sense, however, provided that the ID of the cup matches closely to the guide boss diameter. |
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Type 4 Unleashed
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Joined: December 13, 2004
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Location: Aliso Viejo, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| michla wrote: |
| Quote: |
| and the boss is used as the inner spring locator |
4--understood, only problem with that is coil chafing as the outer spring deflects/bounces around the inner spring. The idea of spring cups make good sense, however, provided that the ID of the cup matches closely to the guide boss diameter. |
Thats true, and even with the locator & cups, one reason I run single springs with dampers, at first but after I broke some of the dampers, I just went the single springs. |
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michla
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Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| I've absolutely had the worst luck with dampners!! I steer clear of those puppies.--they break too often for my taste. |
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venomous-67
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| CB Racemaster valves? |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Type 4 Unleashed wrote: |
| Thats true, and even with the locator & cups, one reason I run single springs with dampers, at first but after I broke some of the dampers, I just went the single springs. |
| michla wrote: |
| I've absolutely had the worst luck with dampners!! I steer clear of those puppies.--they break too often for my taste. |
Sounds like you need to find higher quality springs. I've put 5000 daily-driven miles (and flogging the snot out of the engine) on my Crower 68311's, single H11 spring with damper; mild solid roller cam, 420 lbs over the nose and .530" of lift.
_________________
| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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michla
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2003
Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah about dampners-it's all about the heat treat, I'm sure (aka: "quality control"). They were TRW stock spring dampners years ago on a Ford pickup and again some aftermarket VW duals I mail-ordered back in the 80's. Guess that gave me a jaundiced opinion, huh?!
I've been trying to find the specification, but no luck--maybe you know?
Are VW keepers a *7 degree* wedge? |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
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Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| michla wrote: |
I've been trying to find the specification, but no luck--maybe you know?
Are VW keepers a *7 degree* wedge? |
I don't know the angle of the VW keepers, but in addition to matching that angle, you will need to match the diameter, too.
IIRC, Manley made a number of 3-groove aftermarket valves for the VW...I wonder if they also made the keepers and if they could cross-reference other compatible retainers.
If push comes to shove, you may have to chuck a set of retainers up on the lathe and turn them down to work with the springs you are looking at.
_________________
| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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