| Author |
Message |
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
atrujillo1991
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2007
Posts: 155
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
This is a battle I can honestly say I experienced today.
Yes.
Lol my engine's a lot smoother after dialing the points in precisely.
_________________
'72 OG Square
'87 Montana Green GTI- EX 3.0L
'92 GTI- 16vABAt 450+WHP
'96 Celebration Jetta- 16vABA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33986
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| With the ignition left on, and the points not quite closed, I suppose you could get arcing and the pitting might increase resistance and affect the dwell and timing. Have a look! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Get rid of the points. They are a major detriment to the whole system..especially with D-jet. Just get a pertronix. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 11498
Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Get rid of the points. They are a major detriment to the whole system..especially with D-jet. Just get a pertronix. Ray |
there has been considerable debate as to which Pertronix unit actually fits the FI distributor... any suggestions?
_________________
póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have had a set of points last from 1985, until last year when I retired the car from service due to rust issues.
They only got replaced, when I sold the distributor out of the engine. I serviced the distributor, and replaced the points and condensor before I shipped the distributor.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I like the idea of Pertronix, but do not have the bread. There are far more issues further up the list. Points will not let you down, and I do not mind the quality time!   Plus, I have about half dozen, and several in the Squareback.
Rewarded myself, and went to check the points. I had about a millimeter of gap! Um, I wonder if that could be an issue!  Pulled them, and had a black spot on the metal side, but relatively minor. Cleaned them up, reinstalled, gaped, and greased. Added a bit of WD-40 to the felt, and called it good. Well see if it runs in the morning!
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I ran a pertronix until my enigne took a dump. , the vacuum advance unit. It works great, and I would say the only noticeable advantage is off the line throttle response. MPG improvement was like, 2. points work fine, but i hated the stupid little hesitations and things that were right off the line. Pertronix fixed that. Not having to diddle with the distributor at valve adjustment time was nice too, but not a selling point in and of itself.
Personally, i feel like points work just fine, and pertronix would be overkill on an old FI motor. if you're building from scratch though, why dick around? its not like they're expensive.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JSMskater wrote: |
I ran a pertronix until my enigne took a dump. , the vacuum advance unit. It works great, and I would say the only noticeable advantage is off the line throttle response. MPG improvement was like, 2. points work fine, but i hated the stupid little hesitations and things that were right off the line. Pertronix fixed that. Not having to diddle with the distributor at valve adjustment time was nice too, but not a selling point in and of itself.
Personally, i feel like points work just fine, and pertronix would be overkill on an old FI motor. if you're building from scratch though, why dick around? its not like they're expensive. |
Well 2 miles per a gallon, so 36 miles per a gallon, so 374 miles, versus 281!  93 extra miles! So, about $6.75 saving! Did I do that right? Still, takes 13 fill-ups to break even, or 4875 miles, or two or three years. So, guess it is not a huge improvement, especially with such loose figures. It is more of a tuning and engine quality application.
The engine is not old! It has about four thousand miles on it, and runs well. No oil burning, good mileage, and good performance. That is why I am looking at a filter, to make it last even longer.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| architect_7 wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
I ran a pertronix until my enigne took a dump. , the vacuum advance unit. It works great, and I would say the only noticeable advantage is off the line throttle response. MPG improvement was like, 2. points work fine, but i hated the stupid little hesitations and things that were right off the line. Pertronix fixed that. Not having to diddle with the distributor at valve adjustment time was nice too, but not a selling point in and of itself.
Personally, i feel like points work just fine, and pertronix would be overkill on an old FI motor. if you're building from scratch though, why dick around? its not like they're expensive. |
Well 2 miles per a gallon, so 36 miles per a gallon, so 374 miles, versus 281! 93 extra miles! So, about $6.75 saving! Did I do that right? Still, takes 13 fill-ups to break even, or 4875 miles, or two or three years. So, guess it is not a huge improvement, especially with such loose figures. It is more of a tuning and engine quality application.
The engine is not old! It has about four thousand miles on it, and runs well. No oil burning, good mileage, and good performance. That is why I am looking at a filter, to make it last even longer. |
13 fill ups!? my pertronix cost me 40 dollars brand new. at 7 dollars savings per tank, that's only 6 or 7 fill ups. and thats at 32mpg.. iv never gotten 36. 40 dollars is peanuts for better throttle response.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JSMskater wrote: |
| architect_7 wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
I ran a pertronix until my enigne took a dump. , the vacuum advance unit. It works great, and I would say the only noticeable advantage is off the line throttle response. MPG improvement was like, 2. points work fine, but i hated the stupid little hesitations and things that were right off the line. Pertronix fixed that. Not having to diddle with the distributor at valve adjustment time was nice too, but not a selling point in and of itself.
Personally, i feel like points work just fine, and pertronix would be overkill on an old FI motor. if you're building from scratch though, why dick around? its not like they're expensive. |
Well 2 miles per a gallon, so 36 miles per a gallon, so 374 miles, versus 281! 93 extra miles! So, about $6.75 saving! Did I do that right? Still, takes 13 fill-ups to break even, or 4875 miles, or two or three years. So, guess it is not a huge improvement, especially with such loose figures. It is more of a tuning and engine quality application.
The engine is not old! It has about four thousand miles on it, and runs well. No oil burning, good mileage, and good performance. That is why I am looking at a filter, to make it last even longer. |
13 fill ups!? my pertronix cost me 40 dollars brand new. at 7 dollars savings per tank, that's only 6 or 7 fill ups. and thats at 32mpg.. iv never gotten 36. 40 dollars is peanuts for better throttle response. |
What? Where? I have seen them at $80-$100! Might be something to look into. Rust, filter, then Pertronix.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| architect_7 wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| architect_7 wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
I ran a pertronix until my enigne took a dump. , the vacuum advance unit. It works great, and I would say the only noticeable advantage is off the line throttle response. MPG improvement was like, 2. points work fine, but i hated the stupid little hesitations and things that were right off the line. Pertronix fixed that. Not having to diddle with the distributor at valve adjustment time was nice too, but not a selling point in and of itself.
Personally, i feel like points work just fine, and pertronix would be overkill on an old FI motor. if you're building from scratch though, why dick around? its not like they're expensive. |
Well 2 miles per a gallon, so 36 miles per a gallon, so 374 miles, versus 281! 93 extra miles! So, about $6.75 saving! Did I do that right? Still, takes 13 fill-ups to break even, or 4875 miles, or two or three years. So, guess it is not a huge improvement, especially with such loose figures. It is more of a tuning and engine quality application.
The engine is not old! It has about four thousand miles on it, and runs well. No oil burning, good mileage, and good performance. That is why I am looking at a filter, to make it last even longer. |
13 fill ups!? my pertronix cost me 40 dollars brand new. at 7 dollars savings per tank, that's only 6 or 7 fill ups. and thats at 32mpg.. iv never gotten 36. 40 dollars is peanuts for better throttle response. |
What? Where? I have seen them at $80-$100! Might be something to look into. Rust, filter, then Pertronix. |
I bought mine online at CPR. even so, 80-100 bucks is still not that bad for electronic points. you don't have to use the pertronix units either, there are compufire and other companies that make the same kits considerably cheaper.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 11498
Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
so, my original question stands: which model of Pertronix for the FI distributor?
_________________
póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atrujillo1991
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2007
Posts: 155
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blankmange wrote: |
| so, my original question stands: which model of Pertronix for the FI distributor? |
x2! I'd like to know as well.
_________________
'72 OG Square
'87 Montana Green GTI- EX 3.0L
'92 GTI- 16vABAt 450+WHP
'96 Celebration Jetta- 16vABA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the vacuum advance one. they only make two kits that work with our VW distributors.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 11498
Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JSMskater wrote: |
| the vacuum advance one. they only make two kits that work with our VW distributors. |
I was hoping for a part number...
_________________
póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| blankmange wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| the vacuum advance one. they only make two kits that work with our VW distributors. |
I was hoping for a part number... |
part number 1847V. it's listed for 1968-1973 VW T3. it is the vacuum advance unit. I called and specifically asked them, before I bought it, whether it would function in the FI distributor. they assured me it would, and I used it without issues for months.
likewise, the kits offered by other companies (hot spark, compufire, etc) are pretty much identical kits, and they also only come in two varieties- 009/ mech advance, and vacuum advance kits. don't be surprised if you have to file a little here and a little there, I had to take .002 off the corner of my pertronix base in order for it to seat properly.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13263
Location: Tejas!
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
at best, the pertronix will perform as good as perfectly adjusted points, no better. they will however, outperform mis adjusted or worn points. I have used them on a couple of cars, and I liked them.
_________________
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Erik G wrote: |
| at best, the pertronix will perform as good as perfectly adjusted points, no better. they will however, outperform mis adjusted or worn points. I have used them on a couple of cars, and I liked them. |
agreed- it will never be "better" than points- the effect is just that of having a fresh set of points installed, and perfectly gapped, every time you started your car.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Pertronix iss better than points...because points very quickly carbonize...unless they are perfect. That carbonization...closes gap and changes dwell. Carbon is a conductor.
That being said, I have used both Pertronix and compufire. I thought the shielding and harness/grommet assembly on the compufire is sub par compared to Pertronix. Also, the whole module frame and locating lug on the Pertronix was better.
Yes, the vacuum advance model listed for 411/412 and Porsche 914 is correct.
That being said, it is not perfect without mods.
(1) The fit of the magnet disc sometimes slips down too far and is too close to the module.
The magnet disc fit is also sloppy and loose on all module brands. I dropped a thinwall washer made of a slice of metric tube onto theshaft, then put JB weld around the hole in teh disc....slipped it on and let it dry overnight. Don't forget to lube the shaft so it comes off. In the morning I removed it and filed it clean. It fits nice and tight now. I found this can represent about 5 degress of timing change on some distributors. Its the difference in machine work on shaft and cams...not the disc.
(2) The back end of the module needed to be clearanced. It commonly comes up against the wall of the distributor during advance...wedging it so you get incomplete advance.
(3) On some breaker plates....the brass locator pin on the module is just a few thousandths too long. When you tighten the unit down...it pins the two plates together...locking out vacuum advance.
(4) carefully route the wire inside of the dizzy befire you lock down the grommet with the fork and screw on the outside...or it will wear against the edge of the breaker plate everytime you advance...and short out eventually.
Attention to detail I have found.....is what makes most people unhappy with their points replacement module....not the module itself.
If you do not get VERY NOTICABLE smoothness as compared to points on a distributor with high miles on it....then you slop elsewhere in your system (breaker plate slop, spring slop, distributor drive slop, weights sloppy, worn advance arm etc.). This will not fix all of that.
What it does fix...are the minute differences worn distributor lobes give you when added to points that are starting to carbonize.
I always carry points, and condensor as a spare....but I would never purposely go back to points. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
