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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: Another pickup tube issue + Scat sump |
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I ran into the ol' loose tube/brand new case thing again. It wiggles, but I can't get it out.
Link
Would it be better to pull the plug to the right of the pump and swedge it? I would have to find my 1/2" NPT tap and something to plug it with. Can I just bolt it down good?
The other thing is my Scat sump. I was given 6 Allen bolts, with one being longer, presumably for the tube bracket. The thing is, I don't see how to get that long one in there, AND thread the nut on when the case is closed. It's obvious now, when I could just install the sump on one case half, thread the nut, then install the other half, and the remaining Allen bolts. Can I just leave the stock long stud in place and bolt it down with a nut on the long one and five Allen bolts? |
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1955ccbug
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 730
Location: Olympia wa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I used a dull chisel and a hammer with light blows. Just install all the correct studs while the case is apart. |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2106
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Another pickup tube issue + Scat sump |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
| . Can I just leave the stock long stud in place and bolt it down with a nut on the long one and five Allen bolts? |
that's what I did, so far so good |
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Scott Novak
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2004
Posts: 1586
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: |
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You don't want to be sucking air. I had a loose pickup tube and I found was was able to rotate the tube from side to side while pulling and I pulled out the pickup tube. I cleaned the hole in the case and cleaned the outside of the pickup tube. Then I applied Loctite inside the hole in hte case and around the outside of the pickup tube and then wiggled the tube back in place and then bolted down the pickup tube. The Loctite not only holds the pickup tube in place, it also seals the pickup tube so it doesn't allow any air to get sucked into the oil.
Just swaging the inside the the pickup tube may not seal the tube at the case.
Scott Novak |
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Marv [UK]
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Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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It's good paractice to use the bolts from the inside of the case out, with appropriate washers if there is a root radius at the bolt head.
This way you are not relying on the thread in the case for your sump plate etc. A nut on the bolt to hold the sump plate in then wears the thread on the bolt, not the thread in the case if your plate is on / off loads of times. Bolt inside, nut outside compresses the case to acheive torque, not relying on the weak thread.
If they are good quality bolts, you'll be able to apply more torque to your fixings as the majority of torque settings on the VW case were low to prevent the thread being stripped out by an overtorqued stud. |
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Sigurd
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Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Which Loctite, Scott? I would try that if I could actually get the pickup tube to come out.
Marv, I see what you are saying with regards to bolting from the inside out. How then do I get a wrench on the head of the bolt? It looks like I would bolt through the bottom, but if I go through the top, then I have no way of holding the bolt in place while I thread on a nut from the bottom.  |
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Marv [UK]
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Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
Which Loctite, Scott? I would try that if I could actually get the pickup tube to come out.
Marv, I see what you are saying with regards to bolting from the inside out. How then do I get a wrench on the head of the bolt? It looks like I would bolt through the bottom, but if I go through the top, then I have no way of holding the bolt in place while I thread on a nut from the bottom. |
Yeah, sorry, should have said that it's something to do when the case is in two halves  |
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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| It is. I'm still building it. But I still don't see how I can bolt it from the inside. |
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1955ccbug
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 730
Location: Olympia wa
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Are you suggesting replacing all the studs with bolts; or just the one that holds the pick up tube? I was told Loctite 518 is the stuff to use. I couldn't find any locally so I used the bearing and sleeve retainer on mine....we'll see if it works. |
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Marv [UK]
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| 1955ccbug wrote: |
| Are you suggesting replacing all the studs with bolts; or just the one that holds the pick up tube? I was told Loctite 518 is the stuff to use. I couldn't find any locally so I used the bearing and sleeve retainer on mine....we'll see if it works. |
All the sump studs yes, provided you make sure you have no clearance issues.
Other studs, you'd have to make your own mind up when your case is open and your cam is in
When you think about which studs you can do this to, you've got the sump and the oil pump and thats it. Provided you've got clearance to your internals, it's a good idea.
Bear in mind one thing. if you start turning the bolt shaft while doing up the nut, the bolt is undoing on the inside!
Loctite is good stuff, but you can't generally undo studs that have been loctited in. It doesn't make the thread in the mag case any stronger and you can still pull a stud out if you're not generally cautious.
If the case is open, try a bolt  |
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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: |
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I heard Loctite 518 for the pickup tube, if I can find it. But that's a separate issue. I'm going to get my two junk cases out of the shed and see I can use one of those tubes....if I can get my current one out.
My issue with the deep sump is that I got six Allen bolts with the sump. Ok, screw the sump on, but then the pickup tube isn't held down. Ok, one of the Allens is a little longer. I can put the pickup tube nut on that long stud, right? Well, kinda. I don't have one of those cool, funny-shaped homemade 10mm wrenches to hold the nut. Since the case is still split, I thought about installing the sump only on the half with the pickup tube. That way, I can tighten the pickup tube. Then when I close the case, I put the other 3 Allen bolts in the sump. But then I can't get the case half hardware in place with the sump also in place. So my only option is installing the sump with the case closed? That was why I asked if I could leave the stock long stud in place, use five of the Allens, and then just a nut and washer on the sump side of the long stud. Does that make sense? Holy crap, that was a long post. |
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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Marv [UK] wrote: |
If the case is open, try a bolt |
I fold. What kind of bolt? I'm not visualizing this at all for some reason. |
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Marv [UK]
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
| It is. I'm still building it. But I still don't see how I can bolt it from the inside. |
bolt up, check for clearance then torque the bolt up a bit. If you're that worried about it coming loose while you're nutting it up, either loctite it with the semi hardening stuff or grab hold of the end with a pair of pliers |
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Euro 67
Samba's 67 part whord
Joined: February 24, 2007
Posts: 1370
Location: Between Florida and Cali
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: |
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M6X1.25X30 is for the sump to case
M6X1.25X20 is for the sump to drain plate.
It is one of the best investments you can make.
_________________
68 Bug totaled one day will live again
69 Bug donor car
Many parts had, always need em!
| millerje78 wrote: |
| I'm no expert but I'm guessing the spike during cold running has everything to do with the roofing tar(20-50) in the crankcase. |
| bill may wrote: |
| ...i could be wrong as i have only been driving air cooled beetles since august 1965. |
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Marv [UK]
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
I heard Loctite 518 for the pickup tube, if I can find it. But that's a separate issue. I'm going to get my two junk cases out of the shed and see I can use one of those tubes....if I can get my current one out.
My issue with the deep sump is that I got six Allen bolts with the sump. Ok, screw the sump on, but then the pickup tube isn't held down. Ok, one of the Allens is a little longer. I can put the pickup tube nut on that long stud, right? Well, kinda. I don't have one of those cool, funny-shaped homemade 10mm wrenches to hold the nut. Since the case is still split, I thought about installing the sump only on the half with the pickup tube. That way, I can tighten the pickup tube. Then when I close the case, I put the other 3 Allen bolts in the sump. But then I can't get the case half hardware in place with the sump also in place. So my only option is installing the sump with the case closed? That was why I asked if I could leave the stock long stud in place, use five of the Allens, and then just a nut and washer on the sump side of the long stud. Does that make sense? Holy crap, that was a long post. |
From the inside bolt the pick up tube down. How much is sticking outside the case? enough to get a nut on?
You can use the Allen nuts from the outside. Just take the studs out and replace.
Stud size is M6 x 1.25
Your local hardware store has probably got M6 bolts in stock somewhere. get some 40mm long. should be enough to go through the case, gaskets and sump and have enough left over for sticking a nut or two on. Try and get some of the washers that compress to prevent rotation after they are tightened but not the star shaped ones. |
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SRP1
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007
Posts: 4340
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Marv [UK] wrote: |
| Sigurd wrote: |
I heard Loctite 518 for the pickup tube, if I can find it. But that's a separate issue. I'm going to get my two junk cases out of the shed and see I can use one of those tubes....if I can get my current one out.
My issue with the deep sump is that I got six Allen bolts with the sump. Ok, screw the sump on, but then the pickup tube isn't held down. Ok, one of the Allens is a little longer. I can put the pickup tube nut on that long stud, right? Well, kinda. I don't have one of those cool, funny-shaped homemade 10mm wrenches to hold the nut. Since the case is still split, I thought about installing the sump only on the half with the pickup tube. That way, I can tighten the pickup tube. Then when I close the case, I put the other 3 Allen bolts in the sump. But then I can't get the case half hardware in place with the sump also in place. So my only option is installing the sump with the case closed? That was why I asked if I could leave the stock long stud in place, use five of the Allens, and then just a nut and washer on the sump side of the long stud. Does that make sense? Holy crap, that was a long post. |
From the inside bolt the pick up tube down. How much is sticking outside the case? enough to get a nut on?
You can use the Allen nuts from the outside. Just take the studs out and replace.
Stud size is M6 x 1.25
Your local hardware store has probably got M6 bolts in stock somewhere. get some 40mm long. should be enough to go through the case, gaskets and sump and have enough left over for sticking a nut or two on. Try and get some of the washers that compress to prevent rotation after they are tightened but not the star shaped ones. |
The only problem with this, is if you ever strip the threads on the bolt your screwed (pun intended), getting that bolt back out of an assembled case is a tough job. 
If you strip out the case threads you always have the option of a heli-coil or thread insert to make the repair.
One the other hand the bolt will anchor to the case really well, but you must use a very high strength loctite to insure that the bolts don't loosen when you tighten the nut up on the bottom.
Choose wisely, for most well anchored (loctite) studs are the best option.
Last edited by SRP1 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:57 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Marv [UK] wrote: |
| From the inside bolt the pick up tube down. How much is sticking outside the case? enough to get a nut on? |
I bolted it down with the stock stud and nut. There is enough room to get a nut on when I put the sump in place.
| Marv [UK] wrote: |
You can use the Allen nuts from the outside. Just take the studs out and replace.
Stud size is M6 x 1.25 |
Ok, I think we're on the same page.
This is what the arrangement would look like, except with three more Allens on the other half.
On the inside of the case, there's no nut on the Allen bolt. |
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Marv [UK]
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Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
| Marv [UK] wrote: |
| From the inside bolt the pick up tube down. How much is sticking outside the case? enough to get a nut on? |
I bolted it down with the stock stud and nut. There is enough room to get a nut on when I put the sump in place.
| Marv [UK] wrote: |
You can use the Allen nuts from the outside. Just take the studs out and replace.
Stud size is M6 x 1.25 |
Ok, I think we're on the same page.
This is what the arrangement would look like, except with three more Allens on the other half.
On the inside of the case, there's no nut on the Allen bolt. |
I would ABSOLUTELY avoid putting a nut on the inside of the case to hold the pickup tube down! If you're tightening up from the outside and the stud moves, it's a case split job to tighten it up again. You absolutely MUST use a bolt here. If the nut comes off just from vibration, can you imagine the mess it would make at 5000RPM?
Everything else is groovy. no need for nuts on the allen bolts if they are replacing a stud. You're relying on the thread in the case to take the torque. Careful though, it's quite soft! |
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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| So I'll just put the long Allen that I got through from the inside and then nut that down from the sump side...right? |
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Marv [UK]
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Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
| So I'll just put the long Allen that I got through from the inside and then nut that down from the sump side...right? |
yep  |
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