Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Ball joint and Tie rod rubber boots FAQ
Page: Previous  1, 2
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
69BahamaYellow
Samba Member


Joined: April 22, 2011
Posts: 349
Location: Austin, Texas
69BahamaYellow is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Ball joint and Tie rod rubber boots FAQ Reply with quote

Thank you for sharing that, Ray. It's frustrating to see that any new car you buy is supplied with tie rod, ball, and CV joint boots that will easily last 10 years, but most anything available for a bus wont last a year; I think you nailed all the reasons for that.....

Now the good news is that these boots from Polyboots.com (available on eBay), may indeed be a viable alternative to the Chinese garbage we currently have to choose from; only time will tell.

I can confirm the 22-44-32 size polyurethane boot they offer fits a 1978 bus ball joint. They also have some explanation for why that material is a good choice on their website. I saw similar arguments from a farm machinery rebuilder that polyurethane was an excellent choice for ball joint boots because of it's tear and abrasion resistance and resistance to various petroleum grease and ozone.

https://polyboots.com/why-polyurethane-dust-boots

I also get what you're saying about Silicone Grease. I checked with this manufacturer of Silicone Grease, and they did not recommend it for ball joints, unless you were using a "natural rubber" boot, or something that was attacked by petroleum oils. In that case, anything is better than water and sand from having a disintegrated boot. They recommended their synthetic grease for ball joints, which is compatible with polyurethane

http://www.super-lube.com/files/pdfs/Super_Lube_Compatibility_Chart.pdf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 14841
Location: Des moines Iowa
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Ball joint and Tie rod rubber boots FAQ Reply with quote

69BahamaYellow wrote:
Thank you for sharing that, Ray. It's frustrating to see that any new car you buy is supplied with tie rod, ball, and CV joint boots that will easily last 10 years, but most anything available for a bus wont last a year; I think you nailed all the reasons for that.....

Now the good news is that these boots from Polyboots.com (available on eBay), may indeed be a viable alternative to the Chinese garbage we currently have to choose from; only time will tell.

I can confirm the 22-44-32 size polyurethane boot they offer fits a 1978 bus ball joint. They also have some explanation for why that material is a good choice on their website. I saw similar arguments from a farm machinery rebuilder that polyurethane was an excellent choice for ball joint boots because of it's tear and abrasion resistance and resistance to various petroleum grease and ozone.

https://polyboots.com/why-polyurethane-dust-boots

I also get what you're saying about Silicone Grease. I checked with this manufacturer of Silicone Grease, and they did not recommend it for ball joints, unless you were using a "natural rubber" boot, or something that was attacked by petroleum oils. In that case, anything is better than water and sand from having a disintegrated boot. They recommended their synthetic grease for ball joints, which is compatible with polyurethane

http://www.super-lube.com/files/pdfs/Super_Lube_Compatibility_Chart.pdf


Ok....I will try not to be ugly here to any company. Laughing

I have seen polyboot quite some time ago.

There are so many patently incorrect and sales oriented BS statements on that page you linked to....that is litdrally pisses me off.

1. Polyurethane is the absolute WORST material for boots on the market. THE WORST!.

Show me ANY....even just 1.....OEM using PU for any elastomer....anywhere on suspension or drivetrain. There is not a single one....ever.

PU....polyurethane....has great ozone, water, abrasion resistance and pretty damn good oil resistance.....oil....not hydrocarbon. There is a difference. BUT...... in order to have required flexibility for even a ball joint boot....the durometer....after casting.....must be below 35 shore A.
PU below 60 shore A (bearing in mind that the average boot material in Viton or Nitrile is about 40A- 45A and tires are 55A)......has absolutely crappy tear resistance.

So.....virtually all CAST PU parts (remember that term)...are a minimum of 70A hardness.
This is far too hard for boot flexibility and they have no flex and they pop loose from the joint. PU ball joint and tie rod end boots have been on the market for decades from Energy and other companies....and they flat out suck.

2. From the above info.....you will find that a year after installation.....that 70 Durometer boot....which is already too stiff.....will now be 75 durometer. Year 2 it will be 80 durometer. Bearing in mind that normal boots are 40-45A.

3. Do not be baffled by the BS on that site.....the terminology between polysilloxane and silicone is BS. Siloxane is hydrolyzed silicone. All silicone products are siloxane compounds. Polysilloxane simply means silicone compound.
No one has "prettied up" anything. Calling attention to a worthless fact is the prime mark of a marketing department.

4. Their reasons of note for NOT usong silicones in boots......are only peripherally correct and not accurate. Just like urethanes.....there are literally thousands of silicones from pourable, to injection molding, two part cure with three different mechanism, RTVs.....and ranging from basic silicones to impregnated silicones to hard and ultra skin soft silicones and fluoroelastomer silicones.

Silicones are superb for these boots. The abrasion resistsnce issue .....is a non issue. That is a very poor laymans way of saying that the softer silicones have too much surface traction they have a tendency to grab on to very smooth surfaces.

There are silicones that rival urethanes in tear resistance. Keeping in mind....that the orange tropical flywheel seals on type 4 engines....are silicone....and last 100k miles.

Virtually all silicones SURPASS any urethane in temperature range by a minimum of 200F.

Its all in the formulation. Those formulations are sophisticated.

The reason that virtually none of the boot manufacturers of any mind.....use silicone.....is purely for the cost. In order to work with the type of grease required....and work with ozone.....it has to be a fluorosilicone. That is more expensive than just using straight viton.

5. The grease. I am the biggest fan of Super Lube products. Search this site...and more often than not my name comes up because ai mention it a lot.

But....it is a pure synthetic with EP properties.....but I have found it just barely adequate cor wheel bearings because its drop point is too low. It will work well for tie rods. I have used it.
BUT.....its teflon filler is not adequate for the extreme scuff pressure in either large ball jlints like the bus....or CV joints.
They specified this grease.....because using the normal greases with urethane boots......will cause accelerated hardening Wink .

6. The reason they are using polyurethane.....is because it can be CAST.....there is that word....with no expensive molds from a simple two part resin. Its the most common "garage level" rubber on the market......not the best. It has its place. There are parts that cwn only be made correctly....of urethane. This is not one of them.

In reality......what is required from what I am seeing and other industry people are seeing....is a multilayered boot construction for ball joint, tie rod and CV boots.
Ideally...a thin (so its less expensive) main inner layer of fluorosilicone.....good to about 550 whether you need it or not....perfect for any grease.....but not ideal by itself for tear resistance and fuels or solvents......coupled with an outer layer of a normal fluoroelastomer layer like viton which is perfect for ozone, salt spray, heat, fuel, oil....again....thin to keep cost down. Between the two layers you get normal boot thickness. In between the plies.....just like how they build fuel line....should be reinforcing.

This type of dual layer construction is getting more common. A very good example is the strut boots sold under the Duralast brand at,Autozone. They have a polyethylene outside and chloroprene inside. Cheap....great against outer abrasion....great for inner heat and oil.

Just remember that someone described this type of boot to you..... Wink
Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VWDog
Samba Member


Joined: June 24, 2005
Posts: 588
Location: Ladysmith, BC
VWDog is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: question on ball joint and tie rod rubber boots Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
In a week or so I will start a thread to post results over a period of time. Ray


Did you ever do this Ray? I looked but could not find. My SC's boots that I was "forced" to buy from CIP1 after Bus Boys closed shop(apparently theirs were the ones to get), were well disintegrated at the just over 2 year mark. I am looking for a solution.... Sad

Thanks,
Don
_________________

1970 Lotus White Single Cab 2015- , 1979 Sage Green 2014-2015, 1978 Dakota Beige Westy 2012-2015, 1978 Neptune Blue Riviera 2012-2017 , 1970 Neptune Blue Bus 2010-2012, 1970 Deluxe Savannah Beige 2010-2012, 1985 Iltis 2010- , 1962 Single Cab 2010-2013, 1975 Brasilia? Bay/Split Kombi from Brazil 2008-2011, 1985 DoKa 1999-2009, 1971 Bus 1999-2000, 1968 Double Cab 1991-1998, 1965 Ghia 1987-1991, 1970 Westfalia-bought by Mum and Dad in 1970, sold by me in 1993 why-oh-why :_(
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 14841
Location: Des moines Iowa
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: question on ball joint and tie rod rubber boots Reply with quote

VWDog wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
In a week or so I will start a thread to post results over a period of time. Ray


Did you ever do this Ray? I looked but could not find. My SC's boots that I was "forced" to buy from CIP1 after Bus Boys closed shop(apparently theirs were the ones to get), were well disintegrated at the just over 2 year mark. I am looking for a solution.... Sad

Thanks,
Don


My grease testimg with various rubber products is still cooking along. Its been added to by the "main" client. After I deliver what they paid for.....I can start posting details of "my" parts of the testing. Possibly August.

Some interesting things though.....all I can say is that its clear several greases have problems with several rubber types. Is it the grease's fault.....or the rubber quality? Tough question. All I am working toward on my end is what grease /oil should not,be used with what rubber. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB