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VW Bus and Solar: Comprehensive Guide (Updated 4-17-09)
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Emmitt2222
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Joined: February 19, 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: VW Bus and Solar: Comprehensive Guide (Updated 4-17-09) Reply with quote

VW Bus and Solar:
The completely idiotic guide to solar on wheels


Please see page two of this thread for pictures and further explanation of my personal installation process.

Solar power is so overly complicated that I decided to start a thread devoted entirely to it – explaining it all to myself and anyone who wants to come along for the ride. I have literally spent dozens of hours online looking at solar panels, batteries, how electricity works and how people have hooked them up to their buses on this site. With some input, I am hoping that this can become a very definitive guide to all those who are confused. It will probably only become so if I can get some constructive input, however, because I am not an electrician by any means

Also in the process, my personal goal is to become energy independent out of my bus, which I believe I need a 150watt-200watt panel or multiple smaller ones and a 110Ah deep-cell battery. This will allow me to hopefully be able to use about 50AmpH a day continuously without running out too often.
If that made no sense to you, don’t worry. I’m not sure it makes complete sense to me yet either.

This is how I will breakdown this post:
• How much energy do you use/need to have?
• How much energy can the sun produce for you?
• What ways can you harvest that solar goodness?
• Where can your newfound energy be stored?
• How can it be regulated and used on a daily basis?
• Getting yourself efficient, Miscellaneous
• To solar or not to solar?

**NOTE**
- I am doing this for DC power (like your cigarette lighter) because in my bus it would be silly to use an inverter that turns DC to AC (like household plugs) because inverters are mad expensive, usually over $1,000 and you actually lose some of your energy in the transfer process.
- I am assuming that all the electrical appliances I run will be 12V.

Quick and Dirty summary courtesy of j_dirge
Quote:
“A 45 watt panel is probably adequate for basic lights, stereo, etc. when extended camping in a Westy.
An 80 watt panel is probably more than enough to charge for lights, computer, stereo, that type of thing.. but possibly not enough for 12v refrigeration... definitely not in the tropics.

I would suggest you start listing your expected energy use.
List off each light you have, each appliance,.. estimate the number of amp hours they will use, add it all up and that will tell you what size panel you need.

Also, if you use a decent controller (maybe $80) you can charge BOTH banks, so that if you park it for a week or more there is no risk in your starter battery running down either. OR you can purchase a smaller 5 watt panel to trickle charge your starter battery to keep it healthy and topped off.”

j_dirge
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=313120&highlight=solar


How much energy do you use/need to have?

Below is a list of commonly used devices on an RV. Since we do not have RV’s, then not all of them are relevant, but I find them useful to get a general idea of how many amps you are drawing. Working in amp/hours, because of battery requirements and such, I find to be much easier.

12 Volt DC Amp Ratings
Appliance or Accessory ..............Estimated Amps/hour
Aisle Light......................................1 Amp
CO Detector..................................1 Amp
Fluorescent Light............................1-2 Amps
Overhead lights (Per Bulb)..............1 Amp
Porch Light....................................1 Amp
Radio/Stereo.................................4 Amps
Television (12 volt)........................4-5 Amps
TV Antenna Booster......................<1 Amp
Variable Speed Ceiling / Vent Fan...4 Amps
VCR Recorder / Player...................2 Amps
Water Pump..................................4 Amp

Complete list (also includes AC appliances)
http://www.koa.com/familyzone/camping101/articles/rvmaintenance_518.htm

If you have appliances and you know their wattage, but do not know how to figure out how many amps they would use, this simple formula can help -

DC Amps = AC Watts / 12 volts

Ex: I have a laptop that runs at 65watts, therefore

65watts / 12volts = 5.4 amps or ~ 5amps


I am looking to use a few lights, a laptop for a few hours a night, charge my cell phone occasionally and have a cooling or heating options (depending on season). Based on some additional research, such as this sites wattage table http://www.batterycountry.com/ShopSite/sec.htm, that I plan on using the following amount of amps:

Appliance..........Amount....Amps......Hours.........Totals AmpHours
Florescent lights.3.................1.............5.................= 15
Laptop...............1................5.............2..................= 10
Stereo...............1................2............2.5................= 5
Fan....................2................3.............3.................= 18
Cell phone*........1................1..............2................= 2
Total estimated Amp/Hours used daily.....................= 45
*Can’t find proper amps so I’m just guessing

Many people here pay their own electricity bills and therefore know how much energy they use. At the link below, you can find many different calculators to find how much energy you use on a daily basis. All you have to do for many of them is enter in your state/zip and the amount of your electricity bill.

http://www.solarenergygreenlifestyleforyou.com/2008/12/solar-power-calculating-tools-online.html

For my own purposes, and to better understand my own energy consumption, I think it is better to fill out a form to calculate by each appliance, amount and hours used to get a really good idea. Your energy consumption at home could be vastly different than when you are simply traveling in your bus.

Conclusion: I now know how many amp/hours I may use on a daily basis. Now my job is to figure out how much solar energy I can create on a daily basis with the limitations of my bus and my budget. And so we move onward…


How much energy can the sun produce for you?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This nifty chart can tell you how many hours of usable sunlight, on average, there is for you based on your location. If you have a solar panel that is pointed in the general direction of the sun in the desert of Arizona, you can expect to produce peak power for close to 6 hours a day. I currently live in NJ, but plan on moving to NC or TN area so I can expect around 4 hours of useable light a day on average for the year.
The link below is handy, because it shows the average sunlight across the US in January, when you get the least sun, so that is a good starting point.
http://howto.altenergystore.com/images/article/us_solar_insolation_january.png


Conclusion: Based on my location, I can expect anywhere from 3 – 5 hours of useable sun on average, and I need to figure out what size solar panel can create 45-50Amp/hours with that amount of sunlight.


What ways can you harvest that solar goodness?

Solar panel costs: $100 for a tiny 5watt – to over $2,000 for highly efficient 220watts

Most solar setups I have seen on this forum involve smaller solar panels, yet the numbers will just look slightly different depending on your project goal.

There are solar panels that are flexible so you can roll them up on the go:
http://www.mrsolar.com/page/MSOS/PROD/GlobalSolar/SL-65/SESSION_ID/cf1e13be79110c077f3eb6179b0cdd63
Example – Girl sitting next to flexible panel that can be placed a on a dashboard
http://www.solarhome.org/ProductImages/L_666.gif

Or there are the more traditional solar panels that come in hard frames. Because the goal is to put the solar onto the bus – in my case a moving one – you should try to get the ones that are NOT covered in glass.
Standard 80watt panel meant for RV’s
http://www.mrsolar.com/page/MSOS/PROD/rv/MSRV-80/SESSION_ID/cf1e13be79110c077f3eb6179b0cdd63
In action, a 130watt panel on Aswah's van modified by westyventures
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=331675&highlight=solar
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

**Note** - this is a Vanagon… we can’t all be perfect :p


The wattage of the panel and the average number of sunny hours can give you a general idea of how much wattage you can pump out on a daily basis. I would like to get a 200watt panel and I will have around 4 hours a day to harvest that solar energy. A general rule of thumb that I have read about is that approximately 15watts per panel can produce an amp of energy. Therefore, my equation is as follows:

200watts/15watts = 13.33 AmpH
13.33 AmpH * 4 hours sunlight = 53.33 AmpH daily


My solar panel must have a peak power of over 13Amps for this equation to work. If my peak power is much lower, than there is most likely no reason to have such a high wattage panel.

Conclusion: With my location and my solar panel size, I can produce enough electricity to replenish the energy I use on a daily basis, and thus be entirely self-sufficient. If only it were that easy. There is still more to factor in…


Where can your newfound energy be stored?

Battery costs: $50 for 12AmpH 12V deep cycle - $250 for over 100AmpH 12V deep cycle

Now we have this wonderful energy pouring into our electrical appliances, but it must be stored somewhere. And, generally, you always want to have a battery double the size of your daily usage. This way, you do not over-drain the battery constantly and, if need be because of poor weather, you will have some electricity stored in reserve.

Because I plan to use around 50AmpH daily, I would like to have a battery that holds even more than double that. 110AmpH batteries are common and will serve my purpose well. There happen to be several types of batteries, however, so we must look at each to weigh which one will serve our purposes best.

The following website provides a great description and comparison between Starter batteries (like in your car), Deep Cycle and Hybrid –
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#U...%20battery
Appropriate excerpts:
* Starting batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).
*
* Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need.
*
* Marine batteries are usually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, though a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid.

I will be running my engine off of my starting battery, and have the separate battery to power my electronics. Therefore, I have determined my best option is the true deep cycle battery so that I can discharge it much farther than the others without worry of killing the battery life.

But wait! There is always more. Apparently there are three different kinds of battery construction: AGM, Gel cell and Acid. I did some minor reading, but here, I am just going to take the word of another Samba member

Quote:
“I also did both: a 110 AH Trojan deep cycle battery and 125w solar panel. I put my battery under the sink. If you do on line research (not on the Samba) You'll find lead acid batteries provide superior deep cycle ability over AGM or gell cells. AGM batteries are not true deep cycle cells.”

-PDXWesty
http://www.thetford.com/HOME/Products/NorcoldRefrigeratorsHome/MRFT40/tabid/200/Default.aspx


Conclusion: I want to get a 110AmpH deep cycle (acid) battery to store my solar energy so that I have adequate room to store daily energy usage and then some. Remember that a deep cycle is not suppose to discharge more than 80% so I don’t have two full days stored in a full battery – more like a day and a half.



How can it be regulated and used on a daily basis?

Controller costs: $15 - $200

By now, you have hopefully obtained the info you need on how much energy you use, how much you can create* and how much you can store. Now the caveat is that the amount of power you create and store is limited by other factors. For this reason, almost everyone will recommend (if you would like to be completely independent) that you always overshoot on your solar setup so that any energy lost in transfer can be made up.

The crazy thing with electronics, though, is that if they get too much electricity they can do crazy things like explode. That is what brings us to the last major piece of the solar puzzle – you need a Controller to balance how much electricity is placed into your electronics and as a way to monitor that you do not overcharge your battery.

I will be using a car battery and a deep cycle in the same car so I might as well pick a controller that can charge two separate batteries simultaneously, like this:
http://www.mrsolar.com/page/MSOS/PROD/morningstar/...179b0cdd63

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The “SunSaveDuo” on the bottom left is the controller that is featured in the same Aswah's van modified by westyventures


Getting yourself efficient (Miscellaneous)

I am looking to use as few amp/hours as possible so energy efficient appliances are more helpful. Instead of incandescent bulbs which use 1-2 amps/hour, I could use florescent which uses less than 1, or even better yet is LED. LED is still newer on the scene in terms of space lighting so it is more expensive and rarer, but it can use as little as 0.2AmpH. Sick.

I also wanted to find a 12v fan, possibly running a few in the van when it is very hot. The fan listed below runs on less than 3AmpH.
http://store.anchormarina.com/anchor/details.php?ITEM=4101100


Also, one of the largest requests on theSamba is to find out how to run a real fridge off of solar. If that is what you want, make sure to absolutely check out this thread and the solar setup by itlives
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=337512&highlight=solar

A similar fridge to what is discussed in that thread can be found at the link below. Once again, it is quite expensive (upwards of $1k!), but it runs on only 2.5AmpH, aka as ridiculously efficient as a fridge can run.
http://www.thetford.com/HOME/Products/NorcoldRefrigeratorsHome/MRFT40/tabid/200/Default.aspx


Other Miscellaneous topics of interest.

Mounting and Sizing considerations:
Quote:
“I put a Sears Diehard 100 AH under my back seat and have two 53 watt solar panels that I can run separate or together. If you camp in hot places, think about NOT mounting the panels on your roof. Parking in the sun on a hot day so you can charge your panels is dumb. Get 50 feet of 10 gauge speaker wire, Anderson Power Pole connectors and put your panel in the sun and your van in the shade. I use a Surepower 1315 separator and a Progressive Dynamics 30 amp battery charger that plugs into 110 AC from my license plate door.”

Izzydog

**Note** The longer the wires in use, the more likely that there is a loss of amps along the way.

Quote:
“That size system could be all you need most of the time with a decent sized aux battery. It all depends on how you are using your van. If you want to stay parked for a few days without running the engine you should be fine. More than that will depend on hours of sun and angle of sun. In general it is much better to expand the battery capacity rather than expand the solar. Just driving for an hour can put more electrons back into the battery than a couple days of winter sun would with this size solar. Truly relying on solar means camping where the panels will get good sun and this can be a big drawback. Some people use loose panels so they can park in shade and set the panels out in the sun. This leads to security and storage concerns. There is no perfect solution, solar or otherwise. Best to optimize a battery system first and then add solar charging as a final step if needed, imho.”

Crazyvwvanman
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...p;start=20


Quote:
“Mounting the panel on your roof is the most secure, least setup and least theft potential.
THe downside of roof mounting:
Must park in the sun
Must park with the poptop pointing at the sun
If it is designated parking at the campsite, lets say like Big Sur. The parking spots are usually in the shade. So a mobile panel can be put in the sun.”

Dogpilot
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=313120&highlight=solar


Voltage Drop when in use:

Quote:
“I did some voltage drop testing with my long cord hooked up to my solar panel with various electrical loads on the batteries/panel. The engine was off during the testing. All voltage numbers measure at the charge controller. I have a 135 watt panel.

No load........................................ 20.1 Volts.
Radio on...................................... 18.1
fridge on (2.5 amp draw)............... 17.8
fridge and radio ............................17.5
low beams (55watt, 9 amp draw)....13.9”

Jackbombay
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...p;start=20


Wiring discussion:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=330009&highlight=solar


One more complete solar setup by Dogpilot
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249326&highlight=solar

The Three names to search for when it comes to doing complete solar setups on these forums including pictures and all (that I know of) are:
Dogpilot
Itlives
westyventures




To solar or not to solar?

After all of this discussion and reading, I have come to one definite conclusion about solar. It is certainly not for everyone. Try to use this guide to determine if doing a smaller setup is for you (or when it all collapses, you guys can copy my setup Wink)

The reason why I found this information so difficult to compile in the first place? The technology, even for how far it has come, is still very much in it's infancy for commercial use.

*Cost - your upfront cost is going to be substantial, so hopefully this is a long term investment for you. In fact, prices are so sensitive to market conditions, they can actually change on a daily basis and some websites don't list direct prices (Like lobster... mmmmm, lobster)

*Quality Control - raygreenwood adds some great insider insight to the conversation below by pointing out that there can be substantial differences to efficiencies across different solar panel. Essentially, make sure you read the fine print and remember that you get what you pay for (usually) when it comes to solar efficiency and quality.

All panels are not created equal. This isn't like going into a store and buying D Batteries that all have very similar life expectancies and power output. Essentially, be a smart shopper.

*Mounting and/or installation - If you plan on mounting to your vehicle, you can try to ask the others who have done this, but you are almost certainly going to gain some drag on the vehicle in motion. And at least with my bus, I don't really need any reasons to go slower.

With a larger panel, the controller, wires and especially the battery, you could be looking at adding over a hundred pounds to your vehicle. Adding weight to an already brick-of-a-vehicle does have its drawbacks.



Final Conclusion: There are many pluses and minuses to having solar. Every single person's situation will vary greatly so hopefully now you can be armed with the knowledge to make an informed decision.


Last edited by Emmitt2222 on Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:11 pm; edited 5 times in total
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a lot more to solar than that. I worked for a Solar company a few years back. A lot of your calculations can change depending on whose panel, with whose cells, the cell efficiency, connection losses etc.
There a huge differences in panel efficiencies.
Sunpower....the company I worked for made at that time (2003-3004) and now, the most efficient mass produced cells in the world (21% then and 23% now).
The average cheaply bough cell is between 8% and 15% efficiency. Also what method of connectivity and inverters (if you need to go to AC)...affect cost and power generation ability.

For instance, there are generally 72 cells per standard panel. Each cell produces about 3 watts. They are wired in series.
For instance, Sunpowers best general panels at 18% efficiency generate about 220 watts per panel @ 3 volts. Each panel is about 62" x 32" (somewhere close to that). You would need at least four wired in series to deliver 12 volts @ 880 watts.
So about 125" x 65" of space. To make it useful you also need mounts to angle them and even better would be a tracker.....to use them on a van.

They could only track while sitting still without the wind ripping them off. They also are not conformable to teh roof in panel form. You are going to lose some mpg's due to drag and weight. You might do better with solar tiles/shingles...also available...but the efficiency is lower so you would need more to make this same amount of watts @ 12 volts. You won't have the avilable roof to plant them on.

In short...I love solar. But this cost of this set up for a van/bus...and what you think you will save...will not offset the cost. In fact, You could sling a propane generator on the roof rack with a larger muffler and a 35 lb tank and have just as much or more power....and have about 7 years worth of propane for less than the cost of what you want to do in solar on a VW van.

For this application its just not very cost effective unless you are just doing it to say look how green I am.

This is not even getting into issues of how teh panel is produced, lifespan...thick film vs thin film etc. Cool idea...just not practical on avan for the cost.....in my opinion. Ray
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thewalrus
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: VW Bus and Solar: The completely idiotic guide to solar Reply with quote

WOW!!! Sticky worthy material on your first post!! I've been here almost 3 years and I haven't posted anything worth a damn!!

Emmitt2222 wrote:
**Note** - this is a Vanagon… we can’t all be perfect :p

Laughing
_________________
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You ran over some #Vanlife'ers hopes and dreams?
60vwnewengland wrote:
Looking forward to next weekend, weed, krunk juice, hookers, blow, hanging with bums, philly, ...the awards!
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hiwaycallin
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: VW Bus and Solar: The completely idiotic guide to solar Reply with quote

thewalrus wrote:
WOW!!! Sticky worthy material on your first post!! I've been here over 3 years and I haven't posted anything worth a damn!!

Yep, strong contender for the best first post ever award. Welcome!
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Emmitt2222
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
There is a lot more to solar than that. I worked for a Solar company a few years back. A lot of your calculations can change depending on whose panel, with whose cells, the cell efficiency, connection losses etc.
There a huge differences in panel efficiencies.
Sunpower....the company I worked for made at that time (2003-3004) and now, the most efficient mass produced cells in the world (21% then and 23% now).
The average cheaply bough cell is between 8% and 15% efficiency. Also what method of connectivity and inverters (if you need to go to AC)...affect cost and power generation ability.

For instance, there are generally 72 cells per standard panel. Each cell produces about 3 watts. They are wired in series.
For instance, Sunpowers best general panels at 18% efficiency generate about 220 watts per panel @ 3 volts. Each panel is about 62" x 32" (somewhere close to that). You would need at least four wired in series to deliver 12 volts @ 880 watts.
So about 125" x 65" of space. To make it useful you also need mounts to angle them and even better would be a tracker.....to use them on a van.

They could only track while sitting still without the wind ripping them off. They also are not conformable to teh roof in panel form. You are going to lose some mpg's due to drag and weight. You might do better with solar tiles/shingles...also available...but the efficiency is lower so you would need more to make this same amount of watts @ 12 volts. You won't have the avilable roof to plant them on.

In short...I love solar. But this cost of this set up for a van/bus...and what you think you will save...will not offset the cost. In fact, You could sling a propane generator on the roof rack with a larger muffler and a 35 lb tank and have just as much or more power....and have about 7 years worth of propane for less than the cost of what you want to do in solar on a VW van.

For this application its just not very cost effective unless you are just doing it to say look how green I am.

This is not even getting into issues of how teh panel is produced, lifespan...thick film vs thin film etc. Cool idea...just not practical on avan for the cost.....in my opinion. Ray


Thanks so much for your very thought out response. This is the detail of the situation that I need to get a better grasp on. The thing is, half of what you said flew right over my head even after all I have read.

My situation is that I am looking to go off the grid permanently. Whether you think I am insane or not, I think the whole economy will collapse and thus the best source of reliable energy for me will be solar. I also want to move my cash savings into tangible goods that can produce, like solar and I am buying farmland.

I am looking to spend 1k - 2k dollars total for the setup as long as it can do all that I want it to do. Do you think with that amount of money, the extreme nature of my beliefs and the effort I am willing to put in that it is worth it?

Is there anyway that you could perhaps give me an example of how efficiency is widely different? And if so, do you have any recommendations that everyone could use as to what the best panels for the money are?

Also, I don't care about going green Shocked
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iWANTBUS
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I read this post and found some really good info.Then I read the second one and had mixed signals about solar on a moving vehicle. There is someone here on the samba that has a solar panel on top of there westy and it seems that it's working out well for them plus they said they didn't spend much either,like 350 for a flexible solar panel. Anyways the info on here is great thanks.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah!....differnt story then. So this is more of an interim experiment toward getting your whole life (house) off the grid right?

Not to get too far off thread here, but in Solar terms $2,000 is not much. Possibly for a VW bus...it can get you something. For a house....it will depend on your needs. The lower your needs the smaller the investment.

The solar industry is in HUGE flux right now. It has grown about 500% world wide since 2002/2003. There are numerous ways to make solar cells. I mean THAT...in several ways:
(1)actual production methods (roll to roll print, plate, mask and etch etc.)
(2) What base material you make them from which can partly dictate production methods (silicon/thick film or hybrids, stainless and glass thin film cells, or hybrid dye based.....and a few truely "out there" methods)
(3) the metallic/elemental combinations used (CIGS: Cadmium, Indium, Gallium diselenide or Cadmium telluride or a few other combinations...and numerous ways to produce each method)

The efficiency issue is like this: Out of every bit of direct sunlight that hits a solar cell....only a certain percentage of that light can actually convert to power. The rest is reflected away or absorbed as heat. The very best commercially available are about 23%. So out ofall sunlight that hits the panel...only 23% gets converted to power. As sunlight gets dimmer (late in the day, cloudy, overcast etc.)....the lower efficiency panels produce less than the higher ones at every light level.
On a 23% panel you might produce usable power up until 20 minutew sbefore sundown.....wheras a less efficient panel may drop off an hour before sundown.
Also as sunlight drops....lets say yesterday was a perfect maximum sunlight day...brightest it can get with no clouds....on the best panels you get 23% ofthat 100% On the average panel you get 12% of that 100%
If tommorrow the sun is at 80% best because of overcast....your bets panel getts 23% of that 80%...the average get 12% of that 80%.

The losses can be large. It pays to get whats good. Drop me a line off-line and I will see if I can point you in some directions. Ray
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TheTominator
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great first post! However, you stated that inverters to convert DC to AC were, "mad expensive, usually over $1,000". Lots of inverters are available through Friendly Local Auto Parts Stores, or online, or elsewhere. I'm guessing thirty bucks on the low end, under $100 for a good one. I thought the following link was useful.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XKu2NyIhUuI/learn/learningcenter/car/inverter.html
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Bursch
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As stated above, very very nice way to enter thesamba's world

TheTominator wrote:
A great first post! However, you stated that inverters to convert DC to AC were, "mad expensive, usually over $1,000". Lots of inverters are available through Friendly Local Auto Parts Stores, or online, or elsewhere. I'm guessing thirty bucks on the low end, under $100 for a good one. I thought the following link was useful.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XKu2NyIhUuI/learn/learningcenter/car/inverter.html

True Sine 12V-DC / 220V-AC inverters are mad expensive. The cheap bastards use a computer generated alternating current like so:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sensitive equipment (laptop, camera etc) may not react well to the modified sine.

As the topic starter mentioned, try to use all your appliances on 12V. Dont charge your cellphone on 110V. 12VDC>110VAC>5VDC doesn't make any sense. Use 12V equipment. Conversion equals loss, minimize!

Another manufacturer of efficient equipment is WAECO. Got their 12V compressor fridge installed. Not cheap, but efficient. Draws 4,5 Ah. -18C in the freezer with a 43C ambient. Ran from a 150Ah battery for two days and two nights -without recharging- while the bus was baking in the direct sunlight of a Turkish summer.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:33 pm    Post subject: Sticky Topic Reply with quote

I think "Girls and Bay Window Buses' sticky beats 'Solar Bus' sticky any day!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you are correct Bursch. But here in the states he is not going to need 220 volts, ever. Considering the "green power" tilt of this thread, I suspect he will be air drying his clothing on a line. As opposed to actually installing a large cloths dryer, in his bus.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheTominator wrote:
I'm sure you are correct Bursch. But here in the states he is not going to need 220 volts, ever. Considering the "green power" tilt of this thread, I suspect he will be air drying his clothing on a line. As opposed to actually installing a large cloths dryer, in his bus.
hehe, i'm not taking a green point of view here. That would be quite ignorant since driving around and enjoying the T2 is very un-green. Just need te power for the sake of POWERRRRR and operating stand-alone. camping out for a few days without recharging with a plug or your engine running would mean you run out of juice and would mean you will not be able to cool your beer properly, or charge your camera to enable you to make pictures of you drinking cold beer.

The amount of fuel needed to propell your bus with the extra drag of the solar panel mounted on top (and extra weight of the entire installation) would prety much cancel out the greenyness of your solar energy.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emmitt2222 wrote:
Whether you think I am insane or not, I think the whole economy will collapse and thus the best source of reliable energy for me will be solar.
I'm not attempting to hijack your thread here and I would not argue the point about the economy going south as it is already pretty obviously headed further that direction. I do have one good question for you though..a few things to think about before you begin to sink real money into this. Let's analyze a couple items you mentioned first:

1) Buy land - cool
2) Set up your bus with solar power - cool

Now, if the economy goes completely bust--as in makes the depression look like the good ole' days--wouldn't that make your solar bus a high value target for theft or crime otherwise? Also, if money gets to the point where it means nothing as it does when an economy literally falls apart, how would you buy gas for your bus? Come up with a way to reliably produce self sustaining fuel--THEN you'll really be on to something! (and you could make "money" or trade chickens or something!) Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Whether you think I am insane or not,


Welcome. Your kind of insanity will be appreciated around here.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have updated the end of the article to look at the final benefits and drawback considerations that seem to be the primary concerns being brought to my attention thus far.



PicklePickle wrote:
Emmitt2222 wrote:
Whether you think I am insane or not, I think the whole economy will collapse and thus the best source of reliable energy for me will be solar.
I'm not attempting to hijack your thread here and I would not argue the point about the economy going south as it is already pretty obviously headed further that direction. I do have one good question for you though..a few things to think about before you begin to sink real money into this. Let's analyze a couple items you mentioned first:

1) Buy land - cool
2) Set up your bus with solar power - cool

Now, if the economy goes completely bust--as in makes the depression look like the good ole' days--wouldn't that make your solar bus a high value target for theft or crime otherwise? Also, if money gets to the point where it means nothing as it does when an economy literally falls apart, how would you buy gas for your bus? Come up with a way to reliably produce self sustaining fuel--THEN you'll really be on to something! (and you could make "money" or trade chickens or something!) Smile


I have been doing a lot of planning and my situation is rather unique. I plan to travel for a while and during that time on the road I can live out of normal camping sites or stealth camp much easier with solar. Also, I can have fans at Bonnaroo!

When I acquire my land, things will change quite a bit. I plan on building some sort of garage in which to hold my Bus most of the time. I will be farming my land and won't need to be doing a ton of traveling. If I do, it will probably be more local and I may even pick up a golf cart or 4x4 for local travel.

The bus will essentially go from being my vehicle to being my house. I will place the solar panels on the outside of the garage facing South, but a lot of my amenities, such as bed, will still be out of the bus. Also, my land is going to be pretty rural and in the garage. I think I will not really be too targeted for theft.

I have looked at alternate fuel and at this point it would be waaay to much of a money/time waster to try and get to the point where I could actually create my own fuel consistently and reliably. There will still be some oil around, and I will have commodities to trade so I should still be able to acquire some gas, but I don't see it as overly important. If I have energy, food and water (hand-pump well), what more do I need?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iWANTBUS wrote:
There is someone here on the samba that has a solar panel on top of there westy and it seems that it's working out well for them plus they said they didn't spend much either,like 350 for a flexible solar panel. Anyways the info on here is great thanks.


That would be me. I secured the panel slightly down in front to deflect the wind. By flexible, I mean it doesn't have a glass top which could break if anything fell on it.
Emmitt did reference my thread (thanks!), you should check it out. It is a simple set-up, but more than adequate for my needs, and that's what it all comes down to.

Emmitt- I would definitely get a wind turbine also, with what you have in mind. I think there's a good article on Westfalia.org about wind power.

This pic is what prompted the thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome, and like the others say, damn fine first post! I had a couple of thoughts to contribute, may or may not be helpful but here goes:

For me in Eastern Europe and driving ever further east and south, theft would indeed be a big problem. It might be worthwhile to mount a smaller (but not by that much) solar panel into the base of the luggage rack on either early or late westies. You could even mount it on a metal scissor-type mount that would let you stow it flush or even lower, with perhaps a cover of some kind over it in the luggage rack bay, and then raise it six inches or raise and tilt it depending upon your parking position or the position of the sun. Stow by pushing it back into the rack, and you've solved the wind resistance issue as well. And even without a cover for it down there, it would be impossible for any casual person to see it to think about stealing it.

Also, check out sailboating websites. Sailboats need to make heaps of power, and often use solar and wind turbines. Seems like living in the bus is sorta like living in a sailboat...only better of course! Sailing stores are also good for locating 12V items in general.

I thought I'd be helpful and throw up a few solar and wind power links too:

http://www.thesolarpowerstore.com/
http://www.mrsolar.com/
http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/solar.htm
http://cas-yachts.com/store/wind_generator_hardware/
http://www.boost-energy.com/ampair/products_product4.asp
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietrich/BoatDCGeneration.html
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes...inverters for solar are MAD expensive. When one talks about inverters for solar we are not talking about a cheap crappy PepBoys model for running your cup warmers and emergency lights.

Most people do not really understand solar. I understand a great deal of the manufacturing process and am still an idiot in many technical respects. Its complex.

The inverters for solar have to be highly, highly efficient and carefully tailored to the application, the connection circuitry, load and efficiency....or else there will be so much power lost in the inversion process as to render a large portion of your wattage investment useless at times of less than perfect sunlight.
In some cases.....inverters can be as much as 25-20% of the installation cost....depending on the size of cost, whose system and how much power.

The very best thing to do is to preplan and have the vast majority (if not all) of what you plan to run on solar....run only on DC. In that way....no inverter....only less expensive and loss creating dropping transformers.

And...since we are still talking about this, if you stay with DC power...and keep your needs low.....you could do much better using a "thin-fiilm" type CIGS based solar array.
Most current thin film applications....are flexible. A thin film solar panel with a mid-grade efficiency of say...10-12% is usually printed on .010" thick stainless sheet. It can be wrapped to conform to the surface of your bus. You can wrap the whole top and have no wind drag. You can wrap the sides. You couldalso...with a little ingenuity...maybe make a roll-up awning of thin film cells that then connects to your grid when you are stationary.
The issues are this. Thin film cells generally produce roughly half what the best thick film ridgid solar cells do. So you need twice as much square footage. But they are conformable and have no individual cells. They have less "real-estate" losses per panel.
For instance on a standard rigid cell panel...each cell is made from a 5" to 5-1/2" semi-square wafer. The spaces between the corners and cells are lost as production. Thin film cells do not have that problem and have maybe 10-15% better area usage....but they are about half the output of watts.
Although this is pretty short...its relatively comeplete for basic understanding. I don't usually quote from wiki...but it may help for a starter to learn what questions to ask.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emmit, i enjoyed your write up and thanks for the helpful info.
me .. i dont want to do anything with solar but listen to tunes while i drink beer around a fire, and know my battery will start the bus in a few days.
cus heck when i pass out, i dont always turn off the radio, or turn it down for that matter!
i got me a big ol panel and have finally compiled all the parts to make it so , now im just waiting for warm weather to hit so i can install it all.

the best thing said here was about hard mount vs satellite.
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