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identifying oil leak sources (pictures)
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airkooledchris
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:23 pm    Post subject: identifying oil leak sources (pictures) Reply with quote

summary:
im pulling the transmission this weekend to get to the main flywheel seal and replace it. I don't want to have to take all of this apart again later by missing anything else that needs to be done while I have half this stuff taken apart.

I also wanted to get some good pictures of everything before I clean it all up, so I can (hopefully) get some advise based on these images as to what else needs to be replaced.

My problem is that the main seal leak is so dirty and nasty, and has been going on since September of 2008, that I don't know whats covered in oil from that one bad seal and what might be a completely different problem.

any and all tips, suggestions and misc tomfoolery is as always, quite welcomed.


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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not a half-bad looking Type4, leaks-wise.

Take it to the carwash, blast the hell out of it, top and bottom, and drive home. Crawl right under with a rag, mirror and flashlight, and find yer leaks. Then when you pull out the motor it's only half as nasty, too.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
That's not a half-bad looking Type4, leaks-wise.

Take it to the carwash, blast the hell out of it, top and bottom, and drive home. Crawl right under with a rag, mirror and flashlight, and find yer leaks. Then when you pull out the motor it's only half as nasty, too.


Agree with 10c here, not that bad, maybe on the good side of average. Remember that these things are just tractors with a pretty shell, and are nearly 30 years old at this point.

Does look like you may have some seepage from around the base of your jugs. Not much you can do about that if you don't want to tear deep into it.
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airkooledchris
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

Does look like you may have some seepage from around the base of your jugs.


that's something I never thought id hear another grown man say to me.








It's all cleaned up now. Off to the local dub parts counter tomorrow to get my weekend supplies. here's hoping I don't realize im missing something at 3pm on Saturday.
doh?
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mike boland
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: identifying oil leak sources (pictures) Reply with quote

you can buy UV dye kits at better auto parts stores & UV light add it to oil...drive it 5 or 10 minutes and then shine UV light on you'll be able to see where leaks are coming from...depending on dye color they'll show up as dayglow green or dayglow orange....even Mr. Magoo could see it...
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks dry to me compared to what I have seen before. How much oil is it dripping? The top of the transmission seems to be the dampest. It the transmission over filled?
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks very much like my 89 GL looked 1.5 yrs ago.
Especially around the rear engine hanger... pulleys, etc.

New main seal in mine, Nov 2007.
No more accumulating mess since then.
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mightyart
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sure your clutch isn't leaking?
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Like everybody has said, you can't get a good idea of leaks till it's clean.
Some of the oil you see could just collected where it is and not really be leaking at that spot.
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Captain Pike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Art on this . It looks like you have a fluid line leak.Brake fluid low?. If you get bubbles/foam when you wash that area then it's hydro fluid.
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weatherbill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dip stick leak....had that last month....

wrap black electrical tape around a couple times will tighten seal and stop leak
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MootPoint
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: identifying oil leak sources (pictures) Reply with quote

mike boland wrote:
you can buy UV dye kits at better auto parts stores & UV light add it to oil...drive it 5 or 10 minutes and then shine UV light on you'll be able to see where leaks are coming from...depending on dye color they'll show up as dayglow green or dayglow orange....even Mr. Magoo could see it...

Wow, I'm not familiar with this stuff. Anyone else ever use it and/or have an opinion? I'd be leery about adding unknown gunk to my oil, especially stuff that glows.
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airkooledchris
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, nearly the end of day one on this project.
so far so good.

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hardest part so far was getting the trans far enough forward to clear the lower case/trans bolts. id push it all the way forward until it hit the crossmember and it still wouldn't clear them. I had to basically just keep lowering the motor down then the trans down bit by bit until they were both angled far enough down to slide forward and clear of everything.

stupid CV's kept getting in the way despite my hanging them with wire.
note, get them as high up into the compartment as possible or they will still cause you grief.

and for the rest of the pics/progress....

motor mount:
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and the one thing that just kept getting in the way. the stupid tailpipe for the BA6:
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no, it doesn't come off. I had to drill out and extract the screw that was seemingly holding it in place, but its part of the BA6 now and I made do with it still there. (despite my trying to kill it)

only one part that I wish I had right now, but I could do anytime even with the trans back in is this little boot thingy:
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reluctantartist
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My boot thingy is fried too. Let us know if you figure out a substitute. Atleast you can get the other accordion for the shift rod from Cal Imports I think it is $11. I used Shoe Goo to rebuild mine. Good lluck with the rest of the project.
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airkooledchris
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it was dark but I wanted to take just a few more parts off to get ready for tomorrow morning...

here's the clutch, which to me looks good:
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pressure plate:
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flywheel:
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backside of flywheel:
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the business end:
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and possible cause for mail seal leak - it looks like that nasty thick sludgy case sealant leaked down into the main seal, perhaps that caused a leak:
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the seal looks like its in great shape, so maybe this isn't even where the nasty mess is coming from:


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are these the 'oil galley plugs' people refer to? if so it looks like they were already switched for the 'screw in type' :
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this fluid doesn't smell like anything at all, and I know some have said that trans fluid has a specific stink to it. its really thick, but I run SAE40 which is thick and black so I could never really tell if it was from the motor or trans. im starting to lean towards it being this tranny input shaft seal as the cause of the seepage:
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a whiff of the oil that is actually in your transmission. A lot of modern oils don't stink all that much. Doesn't look like the crank seal to me, but I would change it anyway while I was in there.

How many miles on your clutch disc? If you have been getting any grabbing you might as well change it.
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airkooledchris
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clutch disc was changed about 3 years ago, and should have around 10k miles on it, give or take 2k miles.

also - your right, that isn't gear oil.
I removed the 17mm fill plug on the trans and checked, its just a hair below the edge of the hole. doesn't appear any is missing.

also, it smells WAY different from engine oil.

sooooo, its engine oil that is leaking.
the question remains, from where and what to do to stop it?

I am not currently setup with the tools or knowledge to check my endplay unfortunately. ill read up on it and see if I can get that number.

I tried to clean things up a bit to see if it would give a better idea of where the oil is coming from.

these 'galley plugs' if that is what they are called, DO look dirty, but it looks like some kind of sealant that is just gummed up around them. they don't seem to show any specific signs of leaking (that I can tell, having no experience looking for an oil leak prior to now)

the 'cam plug?' also seems to just be covered in that thick black sealant, and not specifically leaking oil that I can tell:
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the rear main seal also looks to be in perfect condition. Im not sure what I should be looking for exactly, but I don't see any cracks or tears or signs of it being misshapen or deformed in any ways. as mentioned before there was some of that sealant dripping down over that very top part of it, but that's it.

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when you reference 'heat marks' - is this them? those sorta red/blueish colored area's?
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the clutch disc seems dry as a bone, the only residue I could find on it is a darkish colored dust:
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so, go get the flywheel and clutch disc resurfaced, and then just swap out the main seal, flywheel o-ring (and wherever that felt washer goes) and slap it together and hope for the best?
I don't see what else I can address with what I currently have taken apart.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typically if you have a crankseal leaking you will see radial streaks on the back of your flywheel as the oil is flung outward. I don't see those, but that by itself doesn't prove the seal is not leaking. Also it is very hard to look at a seal in place and say that it is good or bad. To me your oil galley plugs look well installed, so I would not suspect them.

Change out both the crank seal (and o-ring) and the tranny input shaft seal while you are in there no matter what you believe the cause of the leak. Check that the oil slinger is in place behind the tranny input shield.

I would clean the clutch cover and flywheel well with a good solvent, and at least spray the disc with starter fluid to help remove any oil residue. Some people light them on fire to help clean them, never done so myself.
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airkooledchris
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

Change out both the crank seal (and o-ring) and the tranny input shaft seal while you are in there no matter what you believe the cause of the leak. Check that the oil slinger is in place behind the tranny input shield.


sorry for all the questions. I promise I read the manuals I have before asking this. Where is this tranny input shield, or what would it be called in the Bently? im just not sure what these items will look like....

Wildthings wrote:
I would clean the clutch cover and flywheel well with a good solvent, and at least spray the disc with starter fluid to help remove any oil residue. Some people light them on fire to help clean them, never done so myself.


should I still get them resurfaced? or do they look ok enough to just reinstall provided I clean them up nice with a good solvent?

one problem I may have created for myself is that when I cleaned up the clutch pressure plate, I wiped off my marks showing where it lined up with the flywheel. (doh?)
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry should have said seal, not shield. Adult onset dyslexia you know. Look at page 35.97, Figure 9 in the Bentley, you can see how the slinger fits behind the seal. Slinger is probably a misnomer, there is probably a more proper name for it. Unless you have had a pilot bearing failure this is not likely your problem though.

I would just clean the cover and flywheel myself, doesn't look bad in your pictures at least. You can put a straight edge across the wear surface of the cover to see the extend of wear if you want.

Always good to keep parts aligned the way they came apart, but unless your cover had been balanced as part of your rotating package, it will probably not make a noticeable difference which way you bolt it on. Use a center punch next time to mark alignment, that will not wash off.
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mightyart
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

airkooledchris wrote:

only one part that I wish I had right now, but I could do anytime even with the trans back in is this little boot thingy:
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I got one! I got one ! nah na na na nah na!!
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Now that I've made myself feel better for having a rare part, I'm kind of afraid to use it, I got it with the other rubber boot for the linkage, I put the other boot on, and it shredded within a couple of months, it must have been real old.
I got it on Ebay awhile back, I'm going to use it whenever I get around to putting in my new transmission.
This is the part, you can see the part # in the picture.
http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=091301261
I don't know if it's NLA or not.
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