Rear springs question

[joetiger]

Mornin' folks,

I have a question about my rear springs.

First some background:

I'm currently running front springs from a '91 GL currently (lower than stock for my '85 Wolfsburg).

The rears are the original '85's. I've been using Airlift bags to keep things stiff and level. Recently, BOTH of my bags blew out. I've always been a proponent of these things, but after three blowouts, I'm done with them.

One thing I've always hated is the serious negative camber of my rear wheels. Everything is level, but it's because the back wheels are splayed out (taller rear springs, shorter front springs.)

I think I'm going to go with the cutting board spacers in the rear. Here's my question:

Running the spacers with the '85 rear springs might jack up the back end a bit. Is this going to correct the camber at all (camber bolts are already adjusted all the way down.)

Or,

Does it make more sense to use spacers with the '91 rear springs that I have sitting in my garage and level it out that way?

The '91 rears are shorter than the '85 rears and I'm thinking that with spacers, maybe the camber won't be so bad in the back end.

I know I can test this in the real world, but I'm just curious if any suspension gurus can say, before I do it, how it might change the characteristics of the rear end as well as what it will do to the camber.

Thanks for listening...
_________________
Joe T.

'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32

"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron

"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond

Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present

www.josephtrussell.com

[motelvw]

Rear camber is adjustable. Maybe you need a rear end alignment. Start putting penetrating oil on the nuts and bolts now. They've probably never been touched.

[djbside]

[joetiger]

[j_dirge]

[Gauche1968]

Calling all Air Lift defenders to this thread!Is Terry Kay around?
_________________
1984 Vanagon GL
1984 Vanagon Westy

[Terry Kay]

The Dauntless Defender of Air Lifts is here.

Let's see,

The air bags have been in my 87 Westy for 8 years, and in my 89 Carat for 5.

Ony had one leak,in one bag , in the 87 after 5 years, called Air Lift, and got a new pair NC.
You can't beat that---

They are infinantly guaranteed, I like the adjustability option, and seeing as they are guaranteed for life, take only 10 minutes to swap out in the event of failure--I'll keep running them.

Air shocks or overload (spring assist) shocks are not the way to go.
The shock mount's were never intended to carry the whole load of ass end of the Van.

Keep a real close eye on the shock pins ( bolts)
They wll snap in time, and if your on the roll--watch how a loose, banging shock will tear up the rear arm or upper sheet metal in the wheel well area.
Neat---

What would happen if the poster who is PO'ed at the Air Lifts was runnng a Walker Muffler ( that also has a lifetime warrantee) had a couple of failure's in, lets say 5 years do?

Toss the muffler and run a straight pipe?

Nuts.

One other thought regarding the camber problem mentioned.

If you can't get the camber adjustment squared away---you've got some other problems, besides not being able to get it dialed in.

Maybe you need to replace the worn out rear control arm bushings, pins, the arms are outa wack, or something else your not seeing.

Adding spring spacer's, or air bags is cosmeticly correcting another problem your not seeing.

Take a ride to an alignment shop and get a professional opinion, and /or alignment.

Your not seeing, or maybe / possibly overlooking something real obvious.

Beisides---you got a front end rack in your back yard to dial in the rear end alignment, dead nut's?
Or is it an Earl the Eye Ball on the money camber dial in?

Take it to an alignment shop, and have them put the Van on their rack.
_________________
T.K.

[camo westy]

I agree with the alignment shop suggetsion; BUT

Make sure the alignment shop actually preforms the alignment correctly, and
Ask the shop to give you the actual alignment specs of the van before any adjustments and what they did to correct any misalignments.

Reason, most production shops have a 'range' of settings that are considered OK.

When I replaced all of the wear parts in the front of my van, the van developed a horrible noise whenever the suspension moved... I finallly got under the van with a stethescope, while a friend bounced the van... result, both brand new (German) upper ball joints were groaning and one upon inspection was binding. I drilled and installed grease fittings, reassembled. No more noise, But--- the alignment (camber) changed on the binding side, not much but it changed..
morales of the story, 1)new parts are not all great 2)small binding issues and wormn parts can drasticly affest handleing/alignment.

Find a small shop where you can talk to someone who actually does the work, and you can talk to, perhaps monetary tip may help get to the bottom of your issue.
Good Luck

[j_dirge]

[joetiger]

I really noticed the Airlift difference on those cloverleaf-type freeway onramps. There was much less sway in the back. It's a good product but I think it's time for something more permanent, short of spending $400 on all new springs.

I'll get mine aligned by a shop and see where we stand...
_________________
Joe T.

'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32

"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron

"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond

Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present

www.josephtrussell.com

[riceye]

[j_dirge]

[riceye]

[djbside]

[quote="riceye"]

[Terry Kay]

<<I beg to differ.

My overloads have been in place for ten years and over 50,000 miles.>>

I'm going to beg ya right back on this one.

The reason 9 times outa ten for the spring assist shocks--or even the air bags is to supplement worn out springs.
It's a fact of life, and as long as the shock or the air bags are cheaper than doing the job right, ths is the end result--


Now, air bags are used in the suspension of Buses, Semi tractor's, trailer's, and motor homes.

Firestone Goodyear, make bags for a bunch of HD applications.
Air lift has been around for maybe 60 years, and has always made a good product.

As long as suspension systems have air bags instead of springs, a air lift system is as close to a sring replacement as your gonna get--without doing it.

With the overload shocks your putting the weight on 4 real narrow pivot points--the shock mounts.

Shocks are supposed to control suspension rebound, not carry the load.
Abosorb the shock--not support the weight of the vehicle plus a overload.

This is the way it is--the way it be in Auotomotive engineering 101.

And the right way of adding any rear suspenion update on the ass end of your( or my ) Van would have been to have a pair of progressively wound springs in leau of beefing up the worn out stock springs with coil over shocks or air bags.
_________________
T.K.

[j_dirge]

[Christopher Schimke]

*EDIT*

[Franklinstower]

[Terry Kay]

The reason 9 times outa ten for the spring assist shocks--or even the air bags is to supplement worn out springs.
It's a fact of life, and as long as the shock or the air bags are cheaper than doing the job right, ths is the end result--[/quote]

<<<When people refer to a spring as being "worn out", I think that most people tend to think that the spring has lost it's load carrying capacity,>>

It has.



<<In the examples given in this thread, concerning the addition of a supplemental coil spring mounted around the body of a shock absorber the shock absorber itself is not carrying the load of the vehicle, the shock absorber body is carrying the load.>>

This is correct.
The shock body is supporting a mamby pamby light loaded spring in the wrong area for maximum spring efficiancy.

It's an assist coil over oil filled shock.
If it was a Bilstein gas charged shock which would offer some more weight bearinh efficiantcy--then maybe there would be some merit to the uni.
As an oil filled shock--your working on that light loaded spring , mounted in the wrong area of the A-arm.
Your asking for something else, not designed to do the job in a different area of the vehicle.


<<In the case of a coil over type shock, there are two distinct systems at work. One system is the shock absorber, which is made up of a body (the big tube), piston, shaft, valving, oil and sometimes gases.>>

Name one overload shock that is a gas charged shock---
Never have seen or heard on one.

<< This is the system that controls the springs. Its the brains of the suspension system. The shocks job is to control the energy that is exerted by the coil spring>>

No it isn't.
A shock absorber is manufactured to control spring rebound--that's all it was ever intended to do.

<< by regulating how fast/slow the spring is allowed to store and release it's energy.>>

Nyet.
Pull your shocks off your ride.
All 4 of them

Let me know how long it takes for your vehicle to stop bouncing over a washboard highway.

You'll look like Cheech & Chong bouncing down the road in their La Bamba mobile.

<<The second system in play in a coil over type shock is the coil spring. The coil over shock system allows two of the components of the shock absorber to do double duty as spring mounts; the shock body and the shaft. A mount attached to the body of the shock as well as a mount attached to the upper portion of the shaft act as these coil spring mounts.>>>

Which is asking the shock to do the job of the fagged out spring.

When the spring is sprung out it offer's little or no vehicle support.

This what a spring was intended to do--support the vehicle & cushion it from the highway's wallow's, divot's & potholes.
Soften the ride so the vehicle doesn't get the big bang at every hole.
The shock was made to retard the spring from returning to it's upper most postion at a rapid rate--bouncing would be a good explaination.

<< If you were to remove the coil spring from the coil over shock, the shock would still act as a shock.>>

Sure it would.

<< It's the ability of the two components of the shock to serve double duty>>>

This was a cheap shot By Warshawski's in the 50's to suppliment bagging , worn out springs--leaf or coil's.

It stuck--people are always looking for a cheap shot--and it jacked up the rear end.

<< as coil spring mounts that allow the coil over shock to carry the load of the vehicle.>>

A very light spring working in conjuction with a half worn out suspension unit, will give you the illusion of the rear suspension being correct.
it isn't.

The shock mounts were never intended to carry the full load of the rear of any vehicle without first being carried by the primary suspension spring.


<<look at the MacPherson/Chapman/ truts as well as the true coil over based suspensions used on millions of road and race cars.>>

And everyday Ma & Pa's automobile.

They are gas charged struts which aide in the rebound properties of the vehicle.
A hydraulic strut won't do the job of a coil spring.

One more smalll item--and I know I'm going to bring up a slightly different vehicle.
But it's a VW, and it's in van form.

I listened to several guru's of Type 2 wonder, and intsalled a brand new pair of spring loaded shocks--instead of getting my torsions bars adjusted properly.
( and this would be just like installing a new pair of rear springs in a Vanagon--the correct suspension height, is the correct suspension height, any way you want to go about it.)

The new shock bolts snapped in less than 5 miles.

Yea--I got the right ride height--but not for too long.

I then adjusted the torsion bars like I first should have so the Bus ran level and true--then stuck a set of Bilsteins under the Bus--all the way around.
All is perfect.

Getting the proper ride height first is the most important mission, and not with an accessory afterthought cure.
It just ain't right.
_________________
T.K.

[Christopher Schimke]

If anyone is interested in continuing this thread, let me know and I will spend the time to respond to Terry's comments. I have plenty to say, but not if no one cares but me.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)

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