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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8503 Location: PNW
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Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:57 pm Post subject: Strange Cylinder Head Question PLEASE HELP |
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A friend of mine got some heads from a machine shop and they dont look like a regular heads.
First of all they only have 6 main fins compared to 8 on a standard head, and NO they are not cut off as they still have the "ears" on the bottom fin.
Second they only have 35cc chambers and a VERY shallow depth from the bottom fin to the sealing surface.
Third they have a wierd horizantal threaded 8mm hole on the #1 or #4 piston on the SIDE of the head right above the hole for the valve cover bail
Fourth a strange part number with additional numbers and NO letter designation. 040 101 375 16
They have stock size valves 35x32 but have long reach plug threads. He was told they are regular heads but I say no way. Someone told him they are early replacement FI heads but do not have the larger valve stem. They have a BR stamping in the spring area so they look like Brazil heads and also have REALLY small washer bosses so that regular 8mm head stud washers barely fit. There is NO WAY that these heads can use a 10mm head stud!! Intake ports look like later 041 style with no valve stem boss but have early small exhaust ports. They also have 041 full bottom fin with no full middle fin when looking down from the intake port side.
Are these industrial heads? Early factory racing heads for super high compression? Aircraft??
He is building a 74x90 engine and when setting the deck height and comression ratio the amount of shims needed is huge to compensate for the super small chamber size. He is unable to use copper head gaskets due to the almost non exsistant cylinder seating area. If he uses a .060 copper head gasket the cylinder will not locate in the head correctly even after torque. WTF??? |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26325 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I can't say I've ever seen heads that look quite like you describe. Sounds like something to take some photos of and post in the Gallery for others to reference in the future. No way they could have been Bug FI heads, those had smaller valves.
So with that shallow depth, does that mean no room for a "step cut" to increase the combustion chamber size?
I just Googled that head part/casting number and came up with this:
http://www.partssave.com/item.cfm?id=350155593015
It's an ad for a matched head and two pistons/cylinders, I'll quote the ad:
"FROM A MEXICAN BUILT NEW LONG BLOCK. THEY ARE USEABLE ONLY WITH THE MEXICAN BUILT LONG BLOCKS AS THEY HAVE DIFFERENT STYLE PISTON AND CYLINDERS AND COMBUSTION CHAMBERS. HEAD NUMBER--040 101 375 16--PISTON AND CYLINDERS ARE DISHED VW"
Hope that info is of some use...
-Andy |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17290 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Those are alcohol heads. In stock form, this 1600 had a CR of 10.5:1.
Don't even think about using them on a gas engine. Less fins means they will overheat. Super high compression means they will ping badly. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8503 Location: PNW
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:29 am Post subject: |
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glutamodo wrote: |
I can't say I've ever seen heads that look quite like you describe. Sounds like something to take some photos of and post in the Gallery for others to reference in the future.
So with that shallow depth, does that mean no room for a "step cut" to increase the combustion chamber size?
"FROM A MEXICAN BUILT NEW LONG BLOCK. THEY ARE USEABLE ONLY WITH THE MEXICAN BUILT LONG BLOCKS AS THEY HAVE DIFFERENT STYLE PISTON AND CYLINDERS AND COMBUSTION CHAMBERS. HEAD NUMBER--040 101 375 16--PISTON AND CYLINDERS ARE DISHED VW"
Hope that info is of some use...
-Andy |
I will take pics as soon as possible.
No definately no room for a step cut.
Yes it helped a lot, I wonder why it didnt come up when I searched?
Bruce wrote: |
Those are alcohol heads. In stock form, this 1600 had a CR of 10.5:1.
Don't even think about using them on a gas engine. Less fins means they will overheat. Super high compression means they will ping badly. |
Perfect. Just what the doctor ordered.
BTW do you samba guys ever sleep????? |
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turboblue Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2003 Posts: 4216 Location: Central Indiana
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Bruce wrote: |
Those are alcohol heads. In stock form, this 1600 had a CR of 10.5:1.
Don't even think about using them on a gas engine. Less fins means they will overheat. Super high compression means they will ping badly. |
South American spec head Bruce? _________________ Gary
Turbo VW Sand Drag Buggy
"If you don't run into the Devil every once in awhile, you must be going in the same direction!" |
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Bashr52 Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006 Posts: 5666 Location: On an island in VA
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Look at the dish in them pistons
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Strange Cylinder Head Question PLEASE HELP |
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derluftwagen wrote: |
A friend of mine got some heads from a machine shop and they dont look like a regular heads.
First of all they only have 6 main fins compared to 8 on a standard head, and NO they are not cut off as they still have the "ears" on the bottom fin.
Second they only have 35cc chambers and a VERY shallow depth from the bottom fin to the sealing surface.
Third they have a wierd horizantal threaded 8mm hole on the #1 or #4 piston on the SIDE of the head right above the hole for the valve cover bail
Fourth a strange part number with additional numbers and NO letter designation. 040 101 375 16
They have stock size valves 35x32 but have long reach plug threads. He was told they are regular heads but I say no way. Someone told him they are early replacement FI heads but do not have the larger valve stem. They have a BR stamping in the spring area so they look like Brazil heads and also have REALLY small washer bosses so that regular 8mm head stud washers barely fit. There is NO WAY that these heads can use a 10mm head stud!! Intake ports look like later 041 style with no valve stem boss but have early small exhaust ports. They also have 041 full bottom fin with no full middle fin when looking down from the intake port side.
Are these industrial heads? Early factory racing heads for super high compression? Aircraft??
He is building a 74x90 engine and when setting the deck height and comression ratio the amount of shims needed is huge to compensate for the super small chamber size. He is unable to use copper head gaskets due to the almost non exsistant cylinder seating area. If he uses a .060 copper head gasket the cylinder will not locate in the head correctly even after torque. WTF??? |
I have the exact same set of heads but mine have the 8 cooling fins, 32 X 35.5 vlaves and the boss is there for the horizontal threaded hole, but it is not threaded.
My chamber volumn is no where near that small, (have not cc'ed them yet, but look real cloase to my stock 041 head volumn).
I am going to use them on my 78 X 88 build (1898). _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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vwfanatic67 Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2003 Posts: 427 Location: Warner Robins, GA
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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just acquired the exact heads that you are referring to. Did any one figure out the story on them. _________________ "white trash but worth every cent"
SBS #74
52 Split Beetle
60 Panel
65 Notchback
More if my wife would let me! |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26325 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Which ones, the 6 fin with the high compression small chambers or the 8 fin with the larger chambers? |
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vwfanatic67 Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2003 Posts: 427 Location: Warner Robins, GA
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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6 fins small chambers _________________ "white trash but worth every cent"
SBS #74
52 Split Beetle
60 Panel
65 Notchback
More if my wife would let me! |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26325 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say go with what Bruce said... an engine set up to run alcohol. |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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do some chamber work&piston work & use them. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Is anybody crazy enough to use them with 94mm WBX pistons and rods |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8503 Location: PNW
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R-Baja Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2008 Posts: 164 Location: Out West
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hot VWs Magazine did a cylinder head buyers guide in one of their issues, December 2010, and it shows the 6 fin head made in Brazil with 35x32.5 valves and high compression combustion chambers. Original VW/AUDI casting.
Last edited by R-Baja on Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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R-Baja Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2008 Posts: 164 Location: Out West
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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AlteWagen, did you ever compile a photo thread of all the various cylinder heads? |
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Jacco Verveer Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010 Posts: 399
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Strange Cylinder Head Question PLEASE HELP |
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was hoping to have these as spare but didnot look at the chambers:)
no way off using these ? because i now need heads Sad
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PumaVW79 Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2012 Posts: 487 Location: WGS84: 22.9083° S, 43.1964° W
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Strange Cylinder Head Question PLEASE HELP |
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karmanniak wrote: |
was hoping to have these as spare but didnot look at the chambers:)
no way off using these ? because i now need heads Sad |
Those are heads for the engine nicknamed "Tork", introduced after 1984 in Brazil. There were ethanol, gasoline, fuel injected and front mounted versions.
They were designed to be used with matching cylinders/pistons, the cylinders have more fins to compensate the only 6 fins on the heads.
The table below show the dimensions, I don't know if it will fit the regular P/Cs
(The "C" measure is 94mm vs 93.81mm on regular cylinders. The "L" measure is 138.60 or 139.40mm vs 136.70mm on regular.)
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Strange Cylinder Head Question PLEASE HELP |
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other than small valves and rust on the seats whats rong?do they use a longer valve or is the engine just narrower?/head shorter? |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Strange Cylinder Head Question PLEASE HELP |
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Maybe someone could dish some pistons in the shape of the combustion chamber and they could be used? Not sure if there is a piston with a thick enough top to make that work or not. Maybe one of the machinists could jump in on that. Just an idea. |
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