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iiigoiii
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting article. looks like in part what he's saying is if you drive higher rated speakers with a clipped signal, they're less likely to be damaged. if you drive your lower rated speakers with the a clipped signal, they're more likely to be damaged.

sure. well, if your amp doesn't put out enough power to get the sound up to listening levels, you're more likely to have a clipped signal. and more likely to damage either set of speakers!

(i think the disconnect on these power discussions comes from 'underpowered' meaning too little power to get the desired listening volume, versus with respect to the speaker ratings.)

moral of the story: don't clip!

mightyart wrote:
I was trying to explain it simple, but here ya go.
http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm
Use decent components and you won't have to worry about any of the above stuff.
Just like home stereo, start with good power and speakers.

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mightyart
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iiigoiii wrote:

sure. well, if your amp doesn't put out enough power to get the sound up to listening levels, you're more likely to have a clipped signal. and more likely to damage either set of speakers!

No, if you have a cheap amp that puts out bad power the more bad power you give your lower rated cheap speakers the more likely they will overheat.
If your good amp doesn't have enough power to get your good speakers up to listening levels, then your good amp doesn't have enough power to get your good speakers up to listening levels.

Really all this stuff is way more then anybody needs to put a decent system in without having to rob a bank.
If you buy a decent head unit and speakers and you find you have to turn it up all the way to hear it, then you don't have enough power.
The system I have now doesn't ever get turned past 3/4 and I've only had it that high one or twice.
1/2 way was fine with the windows open on the highway, and had to turn it down once we got on the regular road.
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Dogpilot
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick note on Bluetooth. I have it in my van, with the mike mounted near the steering wheel. It works great if I'm not moving, but any speed on the van quickly adds enough background noise to make it less than intelligible to the call receiver. I had the same system in my other car and it worked great, so I thought, why not add it to the van? Well, I use the plug in headphones and mike that came with the iPhone now.

One other bluetooth irritation I have has nothing to do with the van, but the Range Rover's system is so aggressive in capturing my phone, all my wife has to do is pull into the top of the driveway for it to take over my phone. If I walk by with the key in my pocket, which activates the car's internal electronics, it captures my phone. You are not supposed to leave the key anywhere near the car, or it will run the battery down anticipating you getting in They kind of went overboard on that system.
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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PNW Westy Owner wrote:
I went through a multi-step process to get what I have today in my Westy. Which is separates in the front doors, 4 inch in the rear cabinet and a sub woofer under the seat.


Under the seat? Are you talking about the bench seat or in the vacant spot under the front seat? If its the under the front, which sub-woofer did you use?
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PNW Westy Owner
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a 86 Westy Weekender so the sub is under the seat directly behind the driver's seat.

Kenwood makes the KSC-SW10 which is a low profile powered sub. It is just under 4" tall and about 14" long. Might fit under one of the front seats? I'd be a little suspicious about the bass output from something so small. . .
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koolmoe
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the Clarion DXZ385USB from Crutchfield:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_020D385USB/Clarion-DXZ385USB.html

Since I had already clipped the plugs coming from the van on a previous botched install, the harness adapter I ordered was only helpful in showing how things should connect. And even then, took a bit to discover that everything needing power had to be joined to the 12v hot.
I'll do a switchable supply sometime in the future but, for now, stereo is always hot and I need to remember to turn it off!

I'm no audiophile, but that stereo installed with stock wiring and speakers sounds just fine to me. Cranks Metallica cleanly and louder than I'd ever want to actually listen to it, and plays my jamband and bluegrass just fine.

Roadtripped up to Philly this weekend and not only did Savannah cruise without any issues, but nice sounds all the way up and back.

So I'm sure there's something to 'high-end this' and 'super-spec that'...but really, a $100 head unit with everything stock, works just fine by me!
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climberjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhinoculips wrote:

Under the seat? Are you talking about the bench seat or in the vacant spot under the front seat? If its the under the front, which sub-woofer did you use?


Rhino,

Here is a fine choice for an under the front seat subwoofer:
Boss 600 subwoofer. Search for best price on Google shopping.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hats off to SC-surfer for turning me onto this cool unit. It's a tight fit, but it fits. Butt-rumblin' bass, yeah!

Install tips:
1) You need to cut away the front part of the driver seat with an sawzall or angle grinder to access the "secret hiding spot". Search this site for more on this. (Ask your neighbor with the well stocked tool chest to help with this one.)

2) You need to remove seat, then the the swivel base part of the seat mount (remove 4 bolts, takes 2 minutes) to finagle the woofer past the stiff swivel wire into the secret spot.

3) I had to bend up the metal battery box tab in back with a big pair of vise grips in order to slide the woofer back far enough. After you do this, the woofer fits and the seat will still swivel normally.

4) You may not need to buy an amp wiring kit, as your positive wire run is only about 1 foot from your aux battery and they give you 20 feet of 8 gauge wire in the kit.

5) I had to remove the bling "Boss" plastic logo plate (took 1 minute) with a small allen wrench so it would fit under the seat. Like I said, it's a snug fit.

This unit gives you some nice bass, but without using up any precious storage area under your bench seat. I feel this is an excellent choice for Westy owners. SC-surfer, thanks again for this tip.
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Last edited by climberjohn on Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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riceye
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

climberjohn wrote:
Here is a fine choice for an under the front seat subwoofer:
Boss 600 subwoofer. Search for best price on Google shopping.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



climberjohn,

Did you have to rewire your speakers to this powered sub, or simply run a pair of RCA cables from the back of your head unit? This (excuse the pun) sounds too good to be true.

I just installed four Polk db401 speakers, and a simple amplified sub would finish up the system nicely.

I was able to install the Polk db401's in my doors utilising the factory grills. I'll take the time to write it up with pics if anyone would be interested. Turned out pretty good!
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PNW Westy Owner
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you could either run RCAs or it accepts speaker level inputs.

The RCA inputs are for left and right and I think most sub outputs on head units these days are mono (1 rca). Not sure how much this really matters though.
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Home Team Van
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

riceye wrote:


I was able to install the Polk db401's in my doors utilising the factory grills. I'll take the time to write it up with pics if anyone would be interested. Turned out pretty good!


I'd love to see some pics. How did you remove the stock speakers from their grills?
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izzydog
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riceye,

Did you use an amp to power those Polks or go straight out of the head unit? Which head unit?
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the looks of this Boss BASS600 sub, but does anybody have anything that reports believable specs? I've seen sites that list is as having anywhere from 400W to 600W RMS, which seems pretty fantastic to me. The other contenders in this size/price bracket are more like 70W to 140W RMS, if I recall correctly. It sounds like it performs regardless of what the specs are... the reviews are almost all positive. I'm considering it or the Boss BASS1200 10" sub to go under my Wolfsburg jump seat.

PNW Westy Owner: What sub did you put under/behind the Weekender jump seat? I'm unclear on whether you say you're using the Kenwood you mention or something else.

I just saw this thread and apparently there was some debate about whether you can damage "good" speakers by clipping an amp that's not capable of powering them. Granted, speaker technology has changed so my experience may not represent the latest speakers, but I have seen good speakers destroyed by trying to drive them with an underpowered amp. If you look at a clipped signal with an oscilloscope, the signal inverts or folds over when it clips rather than just flattening out. That causes the speaker to try to rapidly change direction due to these sharp spikes. What I've seen is that this rattles the speaker apart... either the voice coil or the cone. Granted, you won't "burn up" speakers that are rated for 150W by clipping a 20W amp signal but you can trash the speakers regardless. I don't believe the average audiophile needs to precisely match components but the best policy is to get them in the ballpark.
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mightyart
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volksaholic wrote:

I just saw this thread and apparently there was some debate about whether you can damage "good" speakers by clipping an amp that's not capable of powering them. Granted, speaker technology has changed so my experience may not represent the latest speakers, but I have seen good speakers destroyed by trying to drive them with an underpowered amp. If you look at a clipped signal with an oscilloscope, the signal inverts or folds over when it clips rather than just flattening out. That causes the speaker to try to rapidly change direction due to these sharp spikes. What I've seen is that this rattles the speaker apart... either the voice coil or the cone. Granted, you won't "burn up" speakers that are rated for 150W by clipping a 20W amp signal but you can trash the speakers regardless. I don't believe the average audiophile needs to precisely match components but the best policy is to get them in the ballpark.

You're speakers blow everytime you play them at low volume?
http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm
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riceye
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

izzydog wrote:
Riceye,

Did you use an amp to power those Polks or go straight out of the head unit? Which head unit?


izzydog,

I've got four of the Polk db401's connected straight to the JVC KD-G400 head unit. For now.

I'm going to add a Boss Audio Bass600 sub in a few weeks. At that time I will need to pop the head unit out of the dash long enough to connect the RCA cables and extend the switched lead to trigger the amp. While it is out, I'm also going to splice four bass blockers into the + speaker leads as per hiram6's suggestion. I have a custom pigtail from the original installation of the head unit that has the JVC head plug on one end and the VW harness adapter plug on the other. I'll simply remove that from the van and the new splices will made on the workbench instead of through the dash.

From what I've read, between the powered sub and the bass blockers the sound will be much, much better than it is now. And the upgrade from the factory speakers to the Polks was like day and night.

I'm not looking to wake the neighbors or impress the folks on Main Street, I just want decent sound at highway speeds.

Are there any head units out there that are reasonably priced, but utilize automatic attenuation (volume control)? That would be very cool!
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mightyart wrote:
Volksaholic wrote:

I just saw this thread and apparently there was some debate about whether you can damage "good" speakers by clipping an amp that's not capable of powering them. Granted, speaker technology has changed so my experience may not represent the latest speakers, but I have seen good speakers destroyed by trying to drive them with an underpowered amp. If you look at a clipped signal with an oscilloscope, the signal inverts or folds over when it clips rather than just flattening out. That causes the speaker to try to rapidly change direction due to these sharp spikes. What I've seen is that this rattles the speaker apart... either the voice coil or the cone. Granted, you won't "burn up" speakers that are rated for 150W by clipping a 20W amp signal but you can trash the speakers regardless. I don't believe the average audiophile needs to precisely match components but the best policy is to get them in the ballpark.

You're speakers blow everytime you play them at low volume?
http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm


I never said that. Playing at a low volume does not imply that the amp is clipping the signal... in fact you should have a very clean, undistorted signal. Your linked article is interesting and it looks like the author is generally more knowledgeable that I am on the subject, but I've got a couple problems with his assumptions.
1. It seems like he almost exclusively talks about damage due to heat, but I specifically said you won't "burn up" speakers with an underpowered amp. He does mention mechanical damage:
Quote:
This page deals mainly with speaker damage that involves thermal damage of the voice coil. Speakers can also be damaged mechanically by driving it beyond what the suspension can handle. Mechanical damage is generally caused by driving the speaker with too much power but it can also be done when a speaker is in a ported enclosure and is driven with frequencies below the port tuning frequency. Most of the damage I've seen has been thermal damage to the voice coil.

This is more like the type of damage I have encountered with speakers being driven by a clipped signal, not heat related damage. The reason is related to my second problem with his article...
2. His waveform of a clipped signal shows the top of the sine wave neatly flattened. I won't say that it's not possible for an amp to produce that waveform but when I've observed clipping with an oscilloscope the signal looks very jagged with sharp "spikes" at the point where the clipping occurs. You can see what I'm talking about here: http://www.sonicbeacon.com/user/image/image006-1.png*. That rapidly reversing signal is what has created the mechanical damage I described. It's different than the over extension damage that the author describes; it's fatigue caused by the speaker trying to reverse direction more rapidly and frequently than it's designed to.

If his amp produces that nicely flattened signal when it's clipped I would expect the speakers to not be damaged. They would simply reach the point in their extension where the clipping occurs and hold there until the signal drops below the clipping level, and that extension would be well within the speaker's maximum extension since the amp is underpowered. I guess that's a possible scenario but is not consistent with my experience.

It also may be that with some of the modern varnishes/adhesives used to hold the voice coil together and plastic cones that the problem is not as pervasive as in the past but haven't tested that because I try to match my components. My Polk Audio speakers look to be fairly conventional construction so I'm sure I could damage the cones in the manner I've described but I won't because the power it takes to drive the speakers at a comfortable level is within the range of my head unit.


*The image I linked is from this article... unrelated to our discussion: http://www.sonicbeacon.com/Sonic_Beacon_Complex_Impedance_Measurement_Loudspeaker_Test_Software.htm
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mightyart
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's kind of what everybody's saying, that hooking to little power to speakers will blow them.
The case is if you hook a cheap low power amp to inefficiant speakers that should have plenty of room to take the power, and turn your cheap amp up all the way. then clipping will probably happen.
Clean power to efficaint speakers will just make them work the way they are supposed to work.
To much power to an underpowered speaker will blow it by making it move more then it's supposed to and break it.
I blew a speaker when I was putting in my stereo, sent it to much power and it popped, opps, it was ok because I had another one.
I had another one because I work with this junk everyday.
I buy things that are returned to Best Buy, repair' em, resell' em, and keep the good stuff for myself.
That's Why I have so much of this stuff to play with, I pay for it with the work I do.
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ianstone
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a custom subwoofer box built and placed under the rear seat. I didn't want the guy to necessarily cut a hole, but he did. in the end i like it, but i really dig the under-the(driver) seat setup that some of you have.


I would certainly agree that a good amp is an important part of a stereo setup. I have a 1000w amp. which may be overkill for your needs, but i like quality.

here's a couple pics of my setup:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



amp
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mightyart wrote:
Well that's kind of what everybody's saying, that hooking to little power to speakers will blow them.

Well, no offense, but that's not what I said at all.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volksaholic wrote:
but I have seen good speakers destroyed by trying to drive them with an underpowered amp.


No offence taken, but this is what you said.
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PNW Westy Owner
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volksaholic - I'm using the Pioneer 10" low profile sub mounted in a custom box. Takes up minimal space in the storage area under the rear facing seat in my 86 Westy Weekender. You might be able to mount one of these under one of the front seats. Using an Alpine mono amp to run it. I'm curious about the sound quality of the Boss powered sub too. For a sub to be effective, it has to move a lot of air, hard to picture that happening with the Boss.

I've never seen an efficiency rating for car speakers and aren't most of them 8ohm? Not sure if you surf ebay for car audio, but older Nakamichi, ADS and McIntosh all made very nice amplifiers back in the day that can be had for cheap.
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