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climberjohn
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2005
Posts: 1840
Location: Portland Orygun
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 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: Kool Patch for sound dampening? |
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Hi Volks,
On this page from many moons ago, there is a long dissertation on soundproofing and rustproofing your van.
http://www.type2.com/library/heat/intrir2.html
Not all these ideas are brilliant (IMHO), like using fiberglass insulation on the inside of the side panels, but one is intriguing.
The author suggests using Kool Patch, a paint like product made for roofing. Now, I am not sold on the idea of using roofing products for the inside of a car, but want to find out what other folks think about this. The product seems quite similar to various sound dampening paint-on products, like Second Skin Spectrum.
http://www.secondskinaudio.com/sound-deadener/spectrum.php
Kool Patch is cheaper, about $35 a gallon special ordered from a local hardware store vs. $55 plus a bunch on shipping from Second Skin.
What are the thoughts on using this inside the van for soundproofing? Or, maybe under the wheels wells outside? (Or should I not be a cheapskate and go for the proven Spectrum?
I searched the forum, but did not find much.
_________________
'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often. |
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Alaric.H
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2009
Posts: 2529
Location: Sandy Springs GA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| I have used plenty of cool patch it is a elastomeric paint and not a great one Sherman williams sells a much thicker one once it dries it is like rubber. I do not think this is the answer to the problem. |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Don't put roof tar inside the van. |
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climberjohn
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2005
Posts: 1840
Location: Portland Orygun
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Art,
It's not roofing tar.
It's rubberized paint, that actually does not smell half bad.
_________________
'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often. |
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Mr. Electric Wizard
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2003
Posts: 2846
Location: Smyrna, TN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mightyart wrote: |
| Don't put roof tar inside the van. |
x2. I'd use something like Dynomat or Second Skin or something.
Think of the future owners of your van.
They'll hate you for it.
I wouldn't buy one that had this stuff in it.
_________________
"Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know."
~ Cullen Hightower
(T)exas (C)oalition (B)uses
(H)eidenhammer (B)ully (B)oyz
--1966 De Luxe Camper |
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second skin rep
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2005
Posts: 338
Location: Anthem AZ
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Wow..
Comparing Kool Patch to Second Skin Spectrum.. Nothing even close to one another.
Save to toxic asphalt for your roof where it belongs.
ANT |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Kool Patch application is a real sloppy job.
It does work OK, except you can't get the stuff into the deep cracks, seams, crevases of the inside panels of the van.
It takes a long time to get it applied.
The stink will go away in time.
I'd rather use ( and have many times) Bedliner for a more permanent, waterproof, sound deadening, blow into the deep pockets of the side panel's & faster drying, fix--but that's just me.
Plus the bedliner is like a urethane baggy, the Kool Patch isn't.
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T.K. |
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climberjohn
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2005
Posts: 1840
Location: Portland Orygun
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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People, please. Do a little homework
Kool patch is NOT asphalt roofing compound.
It's a thick elastomeric (whatever that means) sludgy paint.
From what I read about Spectrum, they both sound pretty similar.
Of course you'd be a moron to put asphalt roofing compound anywhere on your van, in or out. I think we all can agree on that.
I was considering using it on the wheelwells, outside the van. It looks vastly thicker than any spray on bedliner.
Perhaps "second skin rep" can post here and rell us how his product is superior, hint hint?
I really have no soapbox here, and hope I don't sound like it. I'm merely trying to figure out if a product that has been touted in the past is worth looking into.
_________________
'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often. |
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second skin rep
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2005
Posts: 338
Location: Anthem AZ
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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You are asking how Spectrum is superior to a roofing elastomer?
Same way that cool seal would be superior when used on a roof.
The answer is in the application intention and product design.
Spectrum is designed to go in a car. To reduce vibrations and sturcture borne noise. Kool seal is meant for a different application. When we designed spectrum, we took in to account all the things that we woudl be going up against.
1. Direct to metal application
2. Rust inhibitin
3. low in VOC
4. self extinguishing
4. Sound deadening mineral filler added
5. expanding and plating filler added
6. crsslinking resins used
7. silicone additive used
8. Teflon wax used
The list goes on and on.
Some of these things might transfer over in to the kool seal coating, but I guarantee they use tons of stuff to make the product work its application that our product has no call for.
Just because things look similar does not mean that they are.
Hell, a porsche 911 turbo and a Hyundai Tiburon might look similar to someone that has never seen a car before.
ANT |
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randywebb
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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there are two broad functions to reduce sound transmission & generation:
1. is to attenuate the sound as it passes thru -- the newer products are light wt. and have micro-sized ceramic beads in them. They look like a sludge paint and are applied with a roller, brush or spray. They actually turn the mechanical movement (which is what a sound wave is) into heat.
2. is to prevent the panel from acting like a drum head - hit on with a fist or hammer to hear this. These can be elastomeric, asphaltic, or even lead pads that stick onto the panel. I'd use the elastomeric type. They work by breaking up the resonant modes of the panel, so it cannot act like one big drum - also the harmonics are lower in frequency and amplitude.
Really, one should use both types... |
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second skin rep
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2005
Posts: 338
Location: Anthem AZ
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
there are two broad functions to reduce sound transmission & generation:
1. is to attenuate the sound as it passes thru -- the newer products are light wt. and have micro-sized ceramic beads in them. They look like a sludge paint and are applied with a roller, brush or spray. They actually turn the mechanical movement (which is what a sound wave is) into heat.
2. is to prevent the panel from acting like a drum head - hit on with a fist or hammer to hear this. These can be elastomeric, asphaltic, or even lead pads that stick onto the panel. I'd use the elastomeric type. They work by breaking up the resonant modes of the panel, so it cannot act like one big drum - also the harmonics are lower in frequency and amplitude.
Really, one should use both types... |
The information you provided is limited to structure brone noise.
The first idea that you listed addresses airborn noise, which these coatings are very inneficient at treating. For airborne noise reducetion a barrier should be used on top of the vibrataion damper.
The ceramic spheres you bring up have very little place in elastomeric coatings. Some vibration coatings have them, some do not.
Ceramic, and more importantly hollow glass spheres are used to lubricate the solids in coating (kind of like suspended ball berrings) as well as provide some amount of heat transfer, but are more commonly used in thermal coatings like Lizard Skin, or our Firewall coating to reduce heat.
Thermal coatings usually have about 75% ceramic/glass content by volume while vibration coatings contain about 5% by volume if any at all.
This is evident in the weight of each product. Ours for example weigh:
Spectrum - 13 lbs per wet gallon
Firewall - 5 lbs per wet gallon
To properly reduce both airborne noise and structure borne noise one should use a damper and barrier.
To try tackle both problems with a single solution will not work in most applications since the amount of product needed would be both cost and functionally prohibitive to most applications; ie getting the carpet or upholstery back in place.
Some companies claim that their ceramic coatings block the transmission of airborne noise due to the sphere being tiny vaccuum chambers that block noise, but this is just a case of marketing hyperbole. The amount of hollow spheres that would be needed to do such a thing on a level that the human ear would be able to decifer would be rediculous. Somthing like 9 solid inches of the coating in order to make a difference. Hogwash marketing, for for some reason it still sells.
There is a bit of crossover with each product but not enough to justify the shotgun apporoach, and not nearly enough evidence that can justify the cost or substantial the claims made by some of the more seedy companies out there.
If anyone has any questions about how this stuff works feel free to call me
623-533-8193
I am always happy to help regardless is you use Second Skin or not.
ANT
Last edited by second skin rep on Sun May 17, 2009 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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climberjohn
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2005
Posts: 1840
Location: Portland Orygun
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Heyo second skin rep,
Thanks for the informed replies. Most Samba folks appreciate when vendors participate on this forum, myself included.
It looks like I'll be getting a gallon of Second Skin Spectrum Sludge (that's fun to say out loud, try it) for under the exterior wheel wells. I've already done most of the interior panels with Raammat.
In Quietness,
CJ
_________________
'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often. |
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second skin rep
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2005
Posts: 338
Location: Anthem AZ
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| climberjohn wrote: |
Heyo second skin rep,
Thanks for the informed replies. Most Samba folks appreciate when vendors participate on this forum, myself included.
It looks like I'll be getting a gallon of Second Skin Spectrum Sludge (that's fun to say out loud, try it) for under the exterior wheel wells. I've already done most of the interior panels with Raammat.
In Quietness,
CJ |
Happy to help.
I hope I am not coming off like a know-it-all, I just want the facts to be known.
If you need a list of worth competitors to our line of noise and heat control products, let me know!
ANT |
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randywebb
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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"The information you provided is limited to structure [borne] noise. "
Well, no.
I agree that it will be more prominent if the noise is transferred by a mechanical connection of some sort, however. |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16757
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Not bashing Second Skin Rep or anything, but many times a product is simply repackaged for a different application. Its simply a matter of finding a product that can fill another need. Purchase it in bulk and repackage it for the new application. Or have the manufacturer do this for you. This is a very common practice for anything from canned green beans to engine components. It's very expensive to develop, manufacture, market and distribute almost any product, so why reinvent the wheel.
I do not know enough about the Second Skin product, so I can't say nor am I implying that this is the case. But from what I have seen on various sound deadening products from some vendors, it's pretty obvious that this does happen.
I don't condemn the practice. Nothing wrong with making money, and if someone wants to spend $5 for a product, when they can buy the exact same thing for $1, hey, it's your money.
The Second Skin Rep supplies some very good tips and expertise and I second the kudos for jumping in and offerning advice.
_________________
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Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
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Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
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There's more, but not keeping them... |
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second skin rep
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2005
Posts: 338
Location: Anthem AZ
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
Not bashing Second Skin Rep or anything, but many times a product is simply repackaged for a different application. Its simply a matter of finding a product that can fill another need. Purchase it in bulk and repackage it for the new application. Or have the manufacturer do this for you. This is a very common practice for anything from canned green beans to engine components. It's very expensive to develop, manufacture, market and distribute almost any product, so why reinvent the wheel.
I do not know enough about the Second Skin product, so I can't say nor am I implying that this is the case. But from what I have seen on various sound deadening products from some vendors, it's pretty obvious that this does happen.
I don't condemn the practice. Nothing wrong with making money, and if someone wants to spend $5 for a product, when they can buy the exact same thing for $1, hey, it's your money.
The Second Skin Rep supplies some very good tips and expertise and I second the kudos for jumping in and offerning advice. |
You are correct.
There is a lot of that repackaging business that goes on in the sound deadening industry. Far too much infact.
Many companies make a profit by way of customer ignorance.
They buy bulk products that look similar to real sound deadening product, and rebadge them under a different name. Most customers are not familiar with these product so something that looks similar is good enough for them. The down side is that just because it looks similar does not mean that it performs the same.
Our Spectrum coating for example, is the only one of its kind in the industry. You will never find it being sold by any other company under any other name for any other purpose.
I am the one the developed the coating. I formulated it myself for this specific aplication. It might work in other applications but I am not sure, since I have not tested it out for anything.
I can tell you though, If someone were to contact me, and ask to formulate them a roofig coaitng, I sure as hell would not sell them the Spectrum coating and call it universal. Rather I would ask them about their needs and requirements and formulate the product according to the goals and price point they are looking to hit.
ANT |
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