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Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose)
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

For a long time, I've been following the discussions about the 'Extend-a-Stay' propane fittings and the 'Second Chance' attachments. Those are modifications to your propane system in a Westfalia that let you supply gas to barbecues outside the van, or screw in a small canister of propane to supply your system if you've run out of gas during a camp out. I didn't like the idea of such a fitting being inside my van, and I didn't need or want to have an external tap into the system. I do my cooking inside Winston when I camp in him.

What I really wanted was the ability to screw in a cylinder if I run out suddenly. THAT has happened twice, both times at the START of a camp out, and both times, it was miserable. I decided to take Winston and my problems to:

Tim Glover
AAA Propane Sales and Rentals, Inc.
7405 W. 44th Avenue
Wheat Ridge, CO 80033
303-425-7623

I usually buy my propane at their other, nearer location at 2851 W. Hampden, but I'd been told there that the best propane man in the Denver metro area was Tim. I have a respect for propane and decided to pay for expertise in return for confidence in the modification. Tim, his wife Tammy, and their assistant could NOT have treated me better.

I was smart enough both to wait 'til Winston's system was nearly empty and to explain to Tim what I wanted, rather than saying, 'Install a Second Chance' or Extend-a-Stay.' I did have some offline photographs of what those installations look like. Once Tim understood my objective, he laughed and just pointed out that the regulator on Winston's propane system has a little test fitting on the bottom. A tap could go into that from which the whole system could be pressurized through a custom hose. Here's the tap:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and here's the hose:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The hose is just long enough for the canister to sit on the ground next to the brushguard while it runs the system. Tim had that little extra trait, besides kindness, that makes for excellence--he tested the set-up by having me light and run the stove off a 2 lb. cylinder he had on hand. It all works perfectly. Tim also went on to fill my system, with savoir faire, and the whole procedure only cost $44. Just the perfect solution to a horrible problem I worried about for far too long.

Thought you'd like to know.

Best!
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singler3360
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post. Without looking in the dark right now at Westapotamous' tap, is that a cap or a plug? I wonder if there's a quick connector or is that overkill for the number of times you might need to tap into it?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: That's a Plug Reply with quote

The test fitting on the bottom of the regulator fitting was open. Tim tapped into that, then put in the right-angle connector, then made my hose. The plug in the connector needs a socket and a wrench to remove it, but if you don't have a socket set of some sort in your van, you ought to.

Best!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simply brilliant! I have yet to install an extend-a-stay fitting. Now I know why I have been procrastinating.

Many thanks for the post. I am sure Winston is happy.
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oldschool84
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

OK, so I have a question or two about making modifications like this, which I would like to do - here is my goal and here are my questions -

Goal - be able to fill the tank on my 84 Westfalia from disposable 1 lb. Coleman Propane bottles

Question 1 - for the set up described in this thread where the tap in is to the regulator, I assume no additional regulator is needed as the regulator for the van is the "step down" for pressure from the 1 lb. bottle

Question 2 - in another thread it suggested that (I think) if you have the Acme fitting with a bleeder valve that if you want to go straight through the Acme fitting you need 3/4 pieces - Acme male to other male brass adapter, female end to fit above adapter to section of tubing to regulator, regulator, section of tubing to female end to accept 1 lb bottle - I believe this rig lets you run from the 1 lb bottle if it is connected to the system

Question 3 - In the above thread regarding Acme fittings and the 1 lb. adapter it is stated in some places that to fill a tank with this you need to hold the 1 lb bottle above the Westy tank to let the LP flow down into the tank - I assume that the bleeder valve also needs to be opened as apparently with regular filling from a dealer source?

Question 4 - Again in the above thread people talk about not having the bottle dangling. My goal is to use the bottle to fill. They are cheap enough that I'd like to fill from them or a 5 gallon. My main goal is to be sure I'm not at the cusp of being empty. So I want to fill (safely) from one or more 1 lb bottles or a propane BBQ tank. If there is a regulator in between, will it prevent the tank from filling?

I don't want to run the system off the bottle or BBQ tank attached - just fill and fill safely. I guess the bleeder, when open will help assure that.

Any advice would be helpful - I went to my local RV World and did not get propane or much encouragement that it could be filled by them and so I'd like to do this to basically make the filling be done by me.

Thanks - I know this has been discussed in different ways, but I'm having trouble fully understanding the systems people are using or suggesting. Also, I'm not really interested in installing an extend a stay if I can help it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

i think it is important to distinguish between "fill" and 'put some in"

question 1: no ,there is already a regulator there.

question 2: they both allow you to run the system ,what you're describing is exactly what is in this thread too.

question 3/4: you are confusing the liquid propane with the gas it releases. what they are saying is if you want to "put propane into the tank to use from the tank" then hold the bottle upside down to drain the liquid propane into the tank on the vehicle. otherwise if you let it dangle then youre just relealasing the gas into the cylinder which results in less yield overall since its now just filling the space inside the tank with gas instead of liquid that turns into more gas.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:37 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

outcaststudios wrote:
i think it is important to distinguish between "fill" and 'put some in"

question 1: no ,there is already a regulator there.

question 2: they both allow you to run the system ,what you're describing is exactly what is in this thread too.

question 3/4: you are confusing the liquid propane with the gas it releases. what they are saying is if you want to "put propane into the tank to use from the tank" then hold the bottle upside down to drain the liquid propane into the tank on the vehicle. otherwise if you let it dangle then youre just relealasing the gas into the cylinder which results in less yield overall since its now just filling the space inside the tank with gas instead of liquid that turns into more gas.


Thanks for replying - for Question 3/4 - that helps a good bit but what I got confused about for the "dangling" thing is that I thought the set ups for dangling meant you had to keep the bottle attached - which now that I think about it makes little sense but perhaps it could have meant the bottle always needs to be in the system to run it. I realize now that's not the case -

So my last question then (I had a lot of them, sorry) is that the regulator in the fill line adapter set up won't prevent filling. I don't know how the regulators work other than that they help step down the pressure - topping up or adding some to the tank via this would mean then that I'd do the following:

1) Open bleed valve on my stock tank

2) Attach adapter/hose

3) Attach 1 lb bottle or BBQ tank and hold above the stock tank until some propane gas begins to whiff out of the bleeder.

4) Lower tank to same level as stock tank or below and disconnect immediately.

This raises a last question - my bleeder valve might be frozen (will check this today) if I can't get it working, will the regulator in this system still prevent overfilling even with the bleeder on the stock tank closed?

Sorry again - LP is something of a mystery to me - I can't tell whether it's pumped under pressure when you're getting a fill, maintains or provides it's own pressure or both - little by little I'm getting it - thanks for all the help.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

Quote:
Goal - be able to fill the tank on my 84 Westfalia from disposable 1 lb. Coleman Propane bottles


Note that doing this is ok, and doing the reverse is not only a bad idea, it is illegal under Federal law if transported.

The underlying reason for this is the difference between fuel grade propane in BBQ tanks and the disposables - the latter being much lower in moisture content designed for consumer use.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

<<This raises a last question - my bleeder valve might be frozen (will check this today) if I can't get it working, will the regulator in this system still prevent overfilling even with the bleeder on the stock tank closed?>>

Do some studyinfvon R/V propane systems.
Google will work.

You will never get avfull tank without that bleeder valve open.
Not even at the propane fill station.
That bleeder must be cracked open for the tank to accept any propane.

And , lets say you have a load of propane in that tank, as you're attempting to loadvl it up with a 1 lbs. bottle.

You had better be real careful with this because you may havr some shrapnel flying from over loading that 1 lbs. walmart bottle.

Study up on how these mobile camper units work first so you understand how the function .
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

Do not try and fill your on-board LP tank with a smaller portable tank... either get yourself an extend a stay setup, so you can plug the smaller tank into your system and use it, OR keep your primary LP topped off.


Filling from a smaller tank to your larger tank is dangerous, if you don't understand the difference between liquid propane and gas propane or don't understand pressure differentials then you won't understand why it's dangerous.

You should NEVER fill the 1lb tanks, they are NOT meant to be refilled and doing so is against the law... not to mention beyond dangerous... if you're going to refill those tanks, have good life insurance please, at least your family won't starve after the fire dept has to scrape bits of you off the walls.

Oldschool... get an extend-a-stay, please do not try and fill your primary LP from smaller tanks... You will NOT be saving money... You will NOT be saving time.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies -

A few things to note -

a) I have zero (actually, less than zero) interest in filling a 1 lb. propane tank from my westy's tank or refilling them to reuse. I don't use these when I camp although I recently got a Coleman stove that we may begin to bring along with the van. I also have no interest at all in sticking one inline in the van, none.

b) My interest was not in saving money - I'm happy to have the propane folks fill it - my worry is that it can be hard, apparently, to find ones with the experience and correct fittings. So long as I can find a local dealer who can fill it up, and I think I can now, I think I should be fine. I am not eager to replace the whole tank or do a lot of modifications. I have a lot of respect for propane and would rather be able to manage some of it myself than have to find someone if out on a trip - but I can fill up or top off first around here.

c) In thinking about all this and the original threads about this - mainly the issue with not knowing how much is in the tank, one approach - kind of dumb, but it would work - is to open the windows and slider door and light both burners on high and just run the tank dry - then you can fill to a controlled level that you want and know how much you have. You could even do this each season. Propane is pretty cheap for that.

I do think my tank is ok after all and so this particular item will not be high on my list of stuff to work on for the van.

Thanks again for the comments and advice - always appreciated
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

oldschool84 wrote:
... my worry is that it can be hard, apparently, to find ones with the experience and correct fittings...


Never, in 27 years of travelling in the Westy, have I ever had a problem getting the propane tank filled.

Once or twice the attendant would look in his box of fittings and declare he didn't have the right one - so I would patiently show him that 'the right one' was no adaptor at all, just the connector already on the end of the hose.

It does help to know how to do this yourself in case the attendant needs tutoring.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane Wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

oldschool84 wrote:
Goal - be able to fill the tank on my 84 Westfalia from disposable 1 lb. Coleman Propane bottles


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A) Those little canisters are usually a mix of propane and butane, which means you won't be filling the tank with pure propane.

B) Do you realize how many of those canisters it will take to refill the 3-gallon Westy tank? Just one gallon would require nearly 5 of those things. Incredibly wasteful.

oldschool84 wrote:
I went to my local RV World and did not get propane or much encouragement that it could be filled by them and so I'd like to do this to basically make the filling be done by me.
...my worry is that it can be hard, apparently, to find ones with the experience and correct fittings.


Any gas station selling propane, or an independent RV place, or a propane dealer, or U-Haul should be able to fill the Westy tank. In the 6 years of owning my Westy, I've only ever encountered annoyed techs who groan when they see where the tank connection is. Like Ahwahnee, I've yet to encounter any refilling problems.

That said, earlier in the year I bought this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...to make filling a tad more pleasant. Details for filler extensions here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392548 .
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

Well, first time out of the box at RV World - a freaking ginormous RV dealer in town here with a lot of camping crap right down to strawberry slicers if you need to carry one of those - and the tech looked at it and said he really wasn't sure. Not knowing which fitting is the right one or having seen it get filled yet, I didn't want to chance it with someone who did not know. I do also share the concern of the original poster for this thread about running out - this despite the fact I carry an MSR Whisperlite as a backup at the moment. I just love making coffee in the van on the occasions I'm lucky enough to get out for an overnight or two.

Thanks for pointing out the number of green bottles needed - I was thinking 1 lb bottle is 1 gallon for some stupid reason. In the end, I don't think I'll need to do this fitting deal - sounds like some other dealers in town should be able to top me up.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

If the propane tank is new, before filling it has to be purged. This just means they add a little propane and then vent it out. Removes any moisture, etc. Then you can fill it per normal procedure. (This is only done ONCE)

On the clever install: Instead of the plug, why not add a gas valve and a plug?
That's what I do, but I'm very safety conscious.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

oldschool84 wrote:
the tech looked at it and said he really wasn't sure. Not knowing which fitting is the right one or having seen it get filled yet, I didn't want to chance it with someone who did not know.


Certainly understandable. Although, it's kind of surprising a giant RV place wouldn't have a more knowledgeable tech on duty. I've encountered gas station attendants who take a quick look and know immediately which connection they need. Time to go get a second opinion, so-to-speak. Wink

oldschool84 wrote:
I do also share the concern of the original poster for this thread about running out - this despite the fact I carry an MSR Whisperlite as a backup at the moment.


I carry the Snow Peak Lite... haven't had to use it yet. Came close once in Moab when the van's propane regulator got clogged.

I've run out of propane just twice on road trips and both times had no problem refilling, even in small towns.

oldschool84 wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the number of green bottles needed - I was thinking 1 lb bottle is 1 gallon for some stupid reason.


Yeah, 1 gallon of propane = 4.26 lbs. Surprised
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

Back to Winston's propane tank mod, does anyone know if all tanks have that same hook up potential, OEM or replacement? I like the idea of having a 1 lb backup ready, though I do carry a little backpack stove if needed.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

vegpedlr wrote:
Back to Winston's propane tank mod, does anyone know if all tanks have that same hook up potential, OEM or replacement? I like the idea of having a 1 lb backup ready, though I do carry a little backpack stove if needed.


All tanks have the potential for what you want... I can't speak to whether the stock LP regulator has that valve though.

An extend-a-stay will give you what you want (a way to use 1lb canisters as backup to your primary LP...) As well as give you the ability to power other propane devices off of your primary LP tank.

To be done properly it should be installed to your tank, but that's easily done by a RV shop or propane dealer.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

vegpedlr wrote:
Back to Winston's propane tank mod, does anyone know if all tanks have that same hook up potential, OEM or replacement? I like the idea of having a 1 lb backup ready, though I do carry a little backpack stove if needed.

If you have the original rectangle regulator it does not have the test screw. What you need is a two stage regulator.
I listed the parts below from Amazon that I used and have ordered another for a friend. Remove the 1/8 brass plug from the below 2 stage regulator and install the reducing elbow and 1/4 brass plug. I also listed the parts for the hose that adapts the small gas bottle.
Have fun.
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-59333-Horizontal-Propa...+regulator

http://www.amazon.com/Anderson-Metals-Fitting-Forg...merReviews

http://www.amazon.com/Dixon-Valve-HHP2M-Brass-Fitt...ge_o02_s00

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-Throwaway-Cylinder...ge_o02_s00

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-59883-Propane-Applianc...ge_o01_s00

The 2 stage regulator is longer than the original. Remove the fittings from the old and put on the new, keeping everything in the same direction. Now the 2 pipes going into the van need to be bent to fit. It a little tight, but take your time they will go. Be careful and do not kink them.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Winston Gets a Second Chance, Propane-wise (Verbose) Reply with quote

For any of you tapping into that gauge port on the bottom of your regulators, do you know if the port is connected to the high-pressure or the low-pressure side of the regulator?

I was thinking of using this port, but then thought if it taps into the low-pressure (post-regulation) side, you'd be injecting propane at full vapor pressure into the secondary regulator....
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