Red Tek - Dissapointing Results

scottjk · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: Red Tek - Dissapointing Results

After educating myself the best I could from reading all the posts and watching various A/C technical videos on the net the end result for me is very disappointing. My thermometer shows a vent temperature of about 78 degrees which is barely different from ambient.

Process...took everything apart, flushed the system extensively with no apparent clogging. New R/D, new expansion valve, ester oil in compressor, various small ester doses around the system. Pulled 27in vacuum for 1 hour. RedTek oil charge, Pro Seal, Leak Stop, and 2 cans of R12a. At that point I found a leak in the compressor seals and replaced the compressor. 27in vacuum for 1 hour, added 3 cans of R12a with pressures of 40-50 low and just under 200 high.

After the second vac should I have added another oil charge to the system? I am assuming that the majority of the ProSeal, Leak Stop and Oil Charge are still in the system. Or did all that stuff get vented on the second vacuum?

I noticed while adding the R12a that the low side would jump as high as 70 and then settle down toward 50 with the high side slowly climbing just below 200.

I've just about had it with this project. Sweating with the windows open almost seems o.k. at this point.

Scott

scottjk · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: Current Pressures

I let it sit for an hour and then started checking pressures again.

My standing low side pressure is 90. What should low side standing pressure be? Idle 50/150, fast idle 40/170. This is with about 3 cans of R12a. The first compressor I put in, that had the leak, had low pressures around 30. The outside temperature was lower so I'm not sure how much that matters.

With the first compressor I also didn't notice the low side pressure spiking up toward 80 when adding R12a. Could this indicate a problem?

The low side off the compressor is somewhat cold, the high side is hot. Definite thermodynamics taking place but something isn't right.

Any thoughts would be great.

Scott

Dogpilot · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject:

Not being the true AC expert that others are, my mech who is an expert always recommends changing the expansion valve when you do major work. It kind of sounds like yours may not be all it can be.
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Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
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billmetric · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject:

R12a ??? seriously? isnt that a combo of Butane and Propane, you are just one match away from blowing yourself and your van to kingdom come with that stuff, its illegal in 18 states ...

R134a retrofit is the only safe way to go, I haven't had any problems with the R134a retrofit, its about 20% less efficient than R12 but it probably wont kill you when it leaks, also the last AC shop I worked at would first test for hydrocarbons in the AC and if the tester went off, your car was pushed outside, they wouldn't touch it,
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There is an idea of a Billmetric; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there...

scottjk · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: Read the Forums

I replaced the expansion valve along with the receiver/drier.

I guess Billmetric hasn't been part of the RedTech discussion. Very Happy

I had the R134 retro and it was horrible.

Scott

Dogpilot · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject:

You obviously run your van on ammonia or some other non-flammable liquid in the interest of safety. Perhaps you have also removed the propane system from your westy with some form of chemical heating in your quest for safety.

If you have not replaced your fuel lines lately your one click from fire. 134a is only 20% less reactive with ozone than R12, besides it is poisonous and should not be inhaled, read the warning on the can. BTW it burns as well.

134 conversions on the van will let you experience blowing out pretty much each one of your AC lines and in my case even cracking the condenser. The system does not take well to the increased pressure. It is not fun to have your van instantly filled with poisonous fumes when the line up the side of the cabinet blows out. One interesting side note about freon/(fluorine based refigerents) they can be combined with simple hydrocarbons to form nerve gas.

We really have beat this subject to death, let your own fear guide you. BTW, oral sex is still illegal in 22 states.
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

VisPacem · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject:

billmetric · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject:

Sorry for my ignorance, just reading from the EPAs own web site, I've been a certified auto AC technician since 1990 back when the switchover from R12 to R134a began, in the near future new cars will be running R-744 CO2 as a refrigerant, R134a was a compromise, I don't write the laws but I am required to follow them ...

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html#q2

"May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "Freon® ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances."

"Gasoline and brake fluid are flammable, but they're allowed in cars. Why not hydrocarbon refrigerants?
Because EPA has been directed by Congress, under the SNAP program, to consider the safety aspects of alternative refrigerants for CFC-12 (as well as their environmental characteristics), it is necessary to address the safety aspects of using a flammable refrigerant in motor vehicle A/C systems originally designed for CFC-12, before that refrigerant can be approved.
There are good reasons why gasoline and other fluids may be used safely while the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in A/C systems may not be safe. Gasoline and other flammable substances are used in systems designed specifically for flammable fluids. A gas tank is deliberately placed in the middle of the rear part of a vehicle to protect it against collisions. Air conditioner condensers, in contrast, are placed at the very front of the car to maintain good air flow. Unfortunately, this location means that condensers may be punctured during a front-end collision. Another difference is that unlike gasoline lines, air conditioners include lines that provide cooling directly to occupied areas -- in this case, passenger compartments. Flammability risk is extremely dependent on the specific system being considered; the simple presence of other flammable fluids in a car does not address the safety of using hydrocarbon refrigerants in an automobile air conditioner."

just a statement of facts,

Thanks for the pleasant visit to Vanagon land, I'll be on my merry way elsewhere Laughing

_________________
There is an idea of a Billmetric; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there...

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

<<After educating myself the best I could from reading all the posts and watching various A/C technical videos on the net the end result for me is very disappointing. My thermometer shows a vent temperature of about 78 degrees which is barely different from ambient.>>

I'd be dissapointed too.

<<Process...took everything apart,>>

Everything?

<<flushed the system extensively with no apparent clogging. New R/D, new expansion valve, ester oil in compressor, various small ester doses around the system.>>>

I asked this question before,and will ask it again--why the ester oil hang up?

<<Pulled 27in vacuum for 1 hour.>>
No where near long enough with the whole syetm broken down and re-assembled.
If you couldn't get it down to 29 -30 here's the problem.

<<RedTek oil charge, Pro Seal, Leak Stop, and 2 cans of R12a>>

Too much nno leak crap, and not enogh product.

<<<At that point I found a leak in the compressor seals and replaced the compressor. 27in vacuum for 1 hour,>>>

Not long enough, not low enough --again.

<<added 3 cans of R12a with pressures of 40-50 low and just under 200 high.>>>

Your low pressure is way off.

<<<After the second vac should I have added another oil charge to the system? I am assuming that the majority of the ProSeal, Leak Stop and Oil Charge are still in the system. >>>

You've just put the Hoover to the system, for an hour--where did the freon hide?
<<Or did all that stuff get vented on the second vacuum?>>>
Yep.

<<I noticed while adding the R12a that the low side would jump as high as 70 and then settle down toward 50 with the high side slowly climbing just below 200.>>

Not enough RPM on the engine will do this every time, durring charging.

<<<I've just about had it with this project. Sweating with the windows open almost seems o.k. at this point.>>>

There ya go Scott.

It's all done but the shouting.

You've got something screwed up in your system, read the wrong stuff that's available wherever on line, and obviosuly didn't get the right answer's, trhe right info, or the correct proceedure's.

This AC stuff doesn't fix itself, and takes some prctical application to understand & repair it properly.

I can see for sure that you most certainly didn't evacuate the system no where near long enough, low enough, or see if it held the vaccum for 4-5 hours anyway--prior to dumping at least 2 loads that I know of into the non-functioning system.

Here's one last, quick, question.

How did you determine that #2 used compressor was a good one?

Just curious how you got to the bottom line on the codition of the compressor.

On a part that you have to depend on, that's going to be flogged all summer long--I for one sure wouldn't depend on a used compressor to get the job done.

Not for long term anyway.

I think you rolled the bones and they came up snake eyes the first roll, and box cars the second.

Buy New.

Don't be dissapointed with the results of the Red Tek
I'd be more dissapointed with some of the operation proceedure's you performed, and the obvious poor selection of equipment.

These items failed , the Red Tek didn't
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T.K.

Dogpilot · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject:

If you read the laws carefully, you will find that after you remove the R12 and convert the system to 134 you can then put hydrocarbon based refrigerants in the system or pretty much anything you want. I've got licensed AC techs working for me as well.

Remember your propane system on the van and nearly every other RV is an OPEN system to the passenger compartment with a somewhat flammable gas and no such regulations exist.

Most of the EPA rules are crap to protect DuPont's patents and force you to use their patented products. Ergo the r12-r134 - anything you want route you must follow. Besides R134 is being regulated away, interestingly enough 18 years after its introduction. Gee, that is exactly when DuPont's patent runs out. It is being replaced with another DuPont product that gets another 18 year run. No trend here.

Do a search, there is about an 8 page thread covering virtually all aspects of this topic.
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

<<"May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "Freon® ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.">>

You forgot to mention a couple of loopholes, which are not binding in this discussion.
(a) antique farm equipment
(b) off road consruction equipment
(c) antique automobile's & trucks with the original R-12 systems in place and operating.

These vehicles fit wthin those parrameter's.--

Your talking about current rides, with the 134-A as original fitment

And--BTW--

In the event of a accident that would cause the AC refrigerant to explode, you sure wouldn't have to worry about reporting about the nuclear hallicost from the minor "Poof" you got from the tiny amount of propane in the refrigerant.
_________________
T.K.

scottjk · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: Continued

The Ester Oil 'hang up' is because that is what RedTek told me to use when I spoke with them directly.

As far as equipment is concerned, I purchased a commercial grade Robinair 15600. No slouch in the vacuum department.

http://www.robinair.com/products/detail.php?id=1061

Looks like I'm going to be buying a new compressor. Good thing I decided to roll the dice here locally so I can return the replacement.

Scott

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

The crap shoot was in making the decision to bolt up the used AC equipment.

Nothing wrong witn the Robinair.

You just didn't allow it to work long enough.

Huh--
You've got a lock on a good bone yard if they'll take back a junk compressor.

The third time on the recharge is a charmer-you might get it dialed in this time.
_________________
T.K.

r39o · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: pressures

So what are the high and low pressures supposed to be with RedTek?

Which products and amounts should be in the typical Vanagon Westy with the rear cabinet AC?
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scottjk · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: Idea...

It would be great also when replying to these forums that instead of saying things like I didn't vacuum it long enough to say how long it should be vacuumed out so everyone can learn including me.

As far as the high and low pressures according to those who know on this forum should be 30 low and around 200 high. I'm still trying to get an answer to what the standing low pressure should be.

Thanks

Scott

Dogpilot · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject:

Well, if one really wants to check your seal. My personal expert puts the vacuum on it in the morning, checks to see how it held by close of the day.

Getting back to the expansion valve, if you buy a new compressor, there is a notice in the box that clearly states no warranty unless you change the expansion valve. Since yours seemed to be surging, It would seem to me you have an issue with it clogging and freeing up. I don't recall you mentioning the receiver drier. It is another item frequently changes with a renewal of the system. The valve can be had at NAPA for about $45 pn 207341 (for my 86 westy at least), the receiver drier was also from there, but I don't have the PN handy. Why change the receiver drier/ Well it is a source of crud to clog the expansion valve and is a filter to remove moisture, also a bit of a problem with AC systems.

A really good idea is to remove the aforementioned parts clean the lines with a substance like what TC mentions. Once the lines are clean put the parts back in and keep your fingers crossed. It took a compressor, expansion valve, receiver drier, two lines and a condenser to get my system working. Each time I lost everything I had put in before. One of the lines, when I had 134 installed just blew sitting there in the driveway, me in my office. I heard the thump looked out to see the white vaporous smoke boiling out of the rear of the van. Not running, just sitting there.
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

scottjk · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: All Done

Thanks for the replies. I still haven't seen anyone say how long you should pull the vacuum. TK says 1 hour isn't long enough so should I pull the vacuum for 2 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours?

I already replaced the receiver/drier. I can't wait to replace the expansion valve AGAIN. It's such an easy swap. Crying or Very sad

Scott

Dogpilot · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject:

What! You don't have ET's fingers. Luckily I have a set of really expensive weirdly shaped wrenches from Snap On for hydraulic fittings. Which always seem to be located in hard to reach areas with little option for getting a bite with a wrench.

What I was alluding to was six to eight hours is long enough. Some folks do it longer to pull moisture out (vacuum makes the water go to vapor). Ronnie, will pull the vacuum in the morning, if it is still good by an hour or so before closing, he will fill it then.
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

scottjk · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: Sounds Good

I had a question awhile back that no one was able to answer so I'll ask it here again. The 1985 shows an expansion valve with the capillary tube and bulb. Post 85 was a all enclosed type valve. Are they interchangeable? That would make life much easier if I didn't have to deal with the capillary tube.

Also, I've seen recommendations to buy NEW and not re-manned. Does anyone have a good place to purchase a new compressor?

Scott

Dogpilot · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject:

Southeast Air in TX, 800-274-1251
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G


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