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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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 Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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More proof there are Democrat engine builders out there, some people will believe anything they're told. Buy from a Republican next time. 
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| SRP1 wrote: |
| Sigurd wrote: |
| My longblock kit was advertised as 130hp flywheel. 1915, L5 heads, 120/1.25, 8.7 CR, 40 Dells. We'll see... |
105hp give or take 5. |
So, you're claiming that Darren's heads don't flow what he claims, and that Darren's dyno overestimates HP? I don't see how 130 HP out of a set of L5's with .496" of valve lift is so extraordinary, especially when he's more than capable of porting a set of heads that will pull 180 HP out of a 40mm intake valve.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
Last edited by Stripped66 on Sun May 17, 2009 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Marty Staggs
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2003
Posts: 352
Location: So Cal
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SRP1
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007
Posts: 4340
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Stripped66 wrote: |
| SRP1 wrote: |
| Sigurd wrote: |
| My longblock kit was advertised as 130hp flywheel. 1915, L5 heads, 120/1.25, 8.7 CR, 40 Dells. We'll see... |
105hp give or take 5. |
So, you're claiming that Darren's heads don't flow what he claims, and that Darren's dyno overestimates HP? |
I meant what I said, which is the combo posted will make 105hp give or take five, this is my opinion based on experience.
All the poster said is that this is a kit, with L5 heads.
The comment made has Nothing at all to do with the above mentioned. So don't take it there and try to stir the pot.  |
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Marv [UK]
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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the British have got a wonderful public body known as "trading standards". OK, so they are a bunch of mostly underacheiving council workers whose job it is to make sure that things that are sold are actually as they claim to be.
A lot of the time, they are actually a big enough threat to get a decent response from anyone treading the line of unsubstantiated claims but then they are mostly aimed at builders and back street mechanics who charge over the odds for work not done.
No doubt there is a similar department at your local authority that could at the very least open up an investigation to inconvenience the lying bastards but it's never an instant process.
It's ironic that in these days of instant gratification, the process required to recieve the gratification as promised can take years.
Moving on, as far as the 1914 goes, 130 BHP is not outside the realms of possibility. my 2017 with stock heads and 36 DRLA's makes 110 at the flywheel and loses 24 in the transmission. Stock heads and smallish carbs restrict it quite a bit but it's what I wanted. The decent heads and bigger carbs will open it out at the top end and up your max HP.
To ensure you get the "as advertised" HP, you are going to have to ensure that you build it to the exacting tolerances the kit vendor used in their trial engine, along with the same compression ratio, carburettor set up, ignition and Air fuel ratio etc.
There are a fair number of variables associated with building an engine kit to the same spec as the kit vendors control engine and I would opine that a fair amount of leaway should be allowed for in your expectations primarily because you are building it, not the vendor. I don't think it's a case of DRD not advertising a true claim, more of an added layer of tolerance creep multiplying out any variation in parts and build quality.
I am sure Mr Raby has a certain amount of information about a shop built engine dyno results versus a motor built from kit prepped parts but built by a consumer.
Art Threan's original gripe is about the vendor that sells a built engine as a 130HP motor when they know damn well it's only sending 110 though the clutch.
This is criminal and quite frankly should be treated as such, but we as consumers have lost the ability to see through the advertising and make up our own mind for the vast majority of the time.
Who here knows everything there is to know about cell phones? Do you buy out of an indepth knowledge and vast research or do you go out and get the one that looks good, has a few flash gizmo's and comes free with a certain call plan and was recommended to you buy the sales person? Is that the best phone for you or the phone that gives them the best margin?
Swings and roundabouts gentlemen. In almost every single transaction you make throughout your entire life you don't buy out of complete choice. Even shopping for food, you buy from what is available and you buy the most appealing products on offer. Thats the way it is.
Advertising has killed mass independent production of goods for the simple reason that they CAN sell you inferior products for less and we let it happen. Take any street in any town in either Britain or the US. thirty years ago there used to be small independent traders in every store, every back street car lot, everywhere. Now go and take a look around. Britain now has an Identikit town, every store in every town is the same. the small time independents can't afford the rent so are pushed down to the low rent end of town where they inevitably suffer and die. I am sure the same can be said for almost every town in america.
Small independent specialists survive by providing a quality product, or by selling bulk fast. This is the same in the VW world as it is in every other walk of life.
It's sad to say but it isn't going to get any better and considering the appeal of cheap products to resellers, the crap aint going to go away either |
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jbreddawg
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006
Posts: 1242
Location: Raleigh NC
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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A long time ago I was young and had a carb rebuilt on an old pontiac . It ran worse after the rebuild then before.
I then decided to search out a "good" shop.
After the guy had finished the job "the car ran mint afterward's" he asked me who did the previous work ?
I told him it was a backyard mechanic that opened his own shop .He responded without missing a beat "He should have stayed in the backyard"
There's TONS of actual shops out there that still do backyard mechanic work.
It pays to search out the good ones.
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The wheel may be turning but the hamster's dead !
| fred69vert wrote: |
| Enough torque to pull the panties off a nun. |
| RCros wrote: |
| Sometimes I have more balls than talent. |
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SRP1 wrote: |
I meant what I said, which is the combo posted will make 105hp give or take five, this is my opinion based on experience. |
Experience with Darren's heads on that combo?
Isn't the whole point of this thread to sift through the BS? At the very least, Darren has dyno data for the engine combinations he sells as kits or completed engines. He'd be able to communicate to the customer whether their choice of exhaust, carbs, etc. will limit the potential of an advertised combination, and that certainly doesn't take into account the customer's ability to tune.
You're either pulling a number out of your @ss, or your *experience* is implicating a shop in selling components that do not meet their advertised claims. That IS the topic of this thread...so, what exactly are you saying? That you've dyno'd that EXACT combination and it made 105 HP? Otherwise, your *opinion* is of no greater value than shops who advertise HP based on dubious dyno outputs. How is that point of view helpful or objective to the overall criticism of the acVW industry?
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
Last edited by Stripped66 on Sun May 17, 2009 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Just to clarify, I'm not calling Darren out. The motor's not even completed yet. I'm hoping it's in the 120-130 range. I'll run it first, then make conclusions. That's all. |
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
| Just to clarify, I'm not calling Darren out. The motor's not even completed yet. I'm hoping it's in the 120-130 range. I'll run it first, then make conclusions. That's all. |
I didn't think you were. But if your choice of components to complete the engine were not up to the task, I'm sure Darren would've given you warning.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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MinamiKotaro
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2008
Posts: 1039
Location: Somewhere in TN
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
| I don't argue it, I just offer to meet them at the track and let's run the cars. Timeslips don't fudge anything. |
Power doesn't necessarily get you a good E.T.
For example, put me in a car capable of 6s in the 1/8 and I'd probably run 9s.
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1967 VW Beetle
2276cc
MegaSquirt-extra v3.57
Check out my ongoing story. |
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71sbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 1334
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| lol so true, in my Jetta Wagon I kept running 14.2's and I was happy ... till my buddy (who was driving it for the first time) ran a 13.9 !!! lol |
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SRP1
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007
Posts: 4340
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Stripped66 wrote: |
| SRP1 wrote: |
I meant what I said, which is the combo posted will make 105hp give or take five, this is my opinion based on experience. |
Experience with Darren's heads on that combo?
Isn't the whole point of this thread to sift through the BS? At the very least, Darren has dyno data for the engine combinations he sells as kits or completed engines.
You're either pulling a number out of your @ss, or your *experience* is implicating a shop in selling components that do not meet their advertised claims. That IS the topic of this thread...so, what exactly are you saying? |
Wow  defensive aren't we.
The only way this will come to a reasonable solution is to take the controversial engine to the dyno and get the numbers.
Nothing more to it, if you want to read into it further then that's your decision, I'll have no part of it. You saw what I said make of it what you will.
Sigurd I hope your build goes well, like I said much earlier, numbers are just numbers.
Last edited by SRP1 on Sun May 17, 2009 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| MinamiKotaro wrote: |
| Eaallred wrote: |
| I don't argue it, I just offer to meet them at the track and let's run the cars. Timeslips don't fudge anything. |
Power doesn't necessarily get you a good E.T.
For example, put me in a car capable of 6s in the 1/8 and I'd probably run 9s. |
Your 60ft times DO suck.
I can identify with that though, all my Bug wants to do is roast tires from a standing start. I can't get traction to save my life, so I have to do rolling starts most of the time. Guess it's time for that traction bar and some other suspension upgrades out back.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SRP1 wrote: |
| Wow defense aren't we. |
Just a little.
| SRP1 wrote: |
Nothing more to it, if you want to read into it further then that's your decision, I'll have no part of it. You saw what I said make of it what you will. |
Sorry if my interpretation is other than your original intent, but were your comments not in direct relation to the claims and components sold by that vendor? And considering that you are a *professional*, your comments are no different than if Art or Jake said that the posted combo would not make 130 HP. In the context of this thread, I don't see how you can be confused as to why your comments were interpreted any other way.
I'm fine to leave it as a simple misunderstanding on my part; I do it all the time...but I also don't have any skin in this game.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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grimace007
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2006
Posts: 2673
Location: swampville, florida
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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man i miss highschool!
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Brian
68 sedan
Dallas Air Coolers
| perrib wrote: |
Hey It is The Samba where well thought out rational answers can take a while and getting side tracked is normal. I was just lucky this time.  |
| cr@M wrote: |
No one has any personal responsibility these days. This country is sue happy. Intelligence is no longer a requirement, just an accessory. |
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| grimace007 wrote: |
| man i miss highschool! |
It's not an ego contest. Art feels strong enough about this topic to bring it to our attention, and to mention his livelihood is affected by "liars" who make dubious claims about the engines they sell. But neither Jake nor Art wish to name who's using the "OC" correction factor, or who's advertising these claims unscrupulously. Most of us know which handful of dynos are used by vendors local to the OC...those who have the dynos and flowbenches, and those who have to use somebody elses dyno or flowbench.
Either grow a pair and name names, substantiate those claims...but if you choose (as a professional in this industry) to refute another vendors claims, be prepared to back it up. What's so hard about that?
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I am concerned this was nothing more than a reminder not to take things at "face value"... Be objective and ask for data, just like I posted early on in the thread.
Some of the experiences that Art and I have seen have come from various places across the country, not from behind the "Orange Curtain" as someone else had stated in the thread.
And this isn't just one or two shops, its a handful of different shops doing different things to mis-represent what they are selling...
Art and I compare numbers a lot on various combos and we have done some of the same development on oils and etc and have seen the same mis-representations first hand... Thats all.
We'll divulge no names, no locations and no regions as to where these people are located. Be smart, ask questions and be objective. If the Vendor gets pissed because you asked, he is probably guilty.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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koolkarmakombi
Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2007
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Stripped66 wrote: |
| What's so hard about that? |
The defamation lawsuit from some aggrieved soul who reckons their dyno figures are right and you are just badmouthing them to trash their business or the lawsuit from some loser who knows it is all lies but will spend the $$$ bogging it all down in the shit to keep the truth from harming their reputation.
Not throwing stones at you 66, just pointing out why names can be a bad thing. |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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AND the admin of this site was happy enough that we did not and will not mention names.. Happy enough to send me a PM stating that.
I respect the site enough not to get it dragged through the mud associated with the fallout from naming a couple of liars.
The Liars will come out, they always do.. In due time.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76941
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Guys... let's move on before this gets out of hand.
Let's just leave it that some vendors will exaggerate the numbers for obvious reasons.
The moral of the story is:
You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get.
If anyone has something to add, send me a PM and i'll unlock it.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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