Setting timing on 2.1 - at Idle or Full Advance?

[Mr. Electric Wizard]

Starting a new thread in hopes of getting an answer.
Following are my steps on how I attemped to set the timing on my 2.1.
1) Made a mark 2" to the right of the "U" mark on the pulley.
2) Warmed up engine.
3) Plugged in timing light to #1 plug wire.
4) Loosened dist. nut.
5) Engaged throttle to 3,000 RPMs
6) Set dist. timing to 2" mark mentioned earlier.

I did not unhook the Idle Stabilizer or the TempII sensor.
I did this all yesterday, but when I went to start the van this morning it doesn't want to start.
Does the procedure I layed out above look correct?
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--1966 De Luxe Camper

[tencentlife]

That's the normal procedure for total advance timing, so long as you had the new mark you made aligned with the case centerline while running at 3k. After you do that, you can let it return to idle and you will see the V-notch running at the centerline at idle. It's good to confirm that, too, since it tells you that you did it right.

It isn't a different timing than spec, it's just a less confusing way to get to the same place, and it also verifies that timing is right when the engine is revving, because honestly, who cares what it is at idle? I sure don't; I never drive at idle.

The 2" mark is 35deg. BTDC. You can vary the setting 5 deg. either side of the 2" mark (timing spec is 35 +/- 5 BTDC at 3k rpm). Maybe yours likes a little more or a little less.

Check over all connections to be sure you didn't disrupt anything while working on it; especially the connector on the side of the diz since they are notorious for trouble. Make sure you tightened down the diz clamp, it's easy to forget that and the timing could have shifted after you set it. Once you get it started, go thru the procedure again and verify that the V-notch is at the centerline when idling, fully warmed up.

Oh, and if your timing light has advance built in, make sure it was at zero when you did the test.

Lots of people have been confused, mainly because they try to mix the book procedure with the total advance procedure and mix up the steps. My advice to them is to not have the book anywhere nearby when setting timing, and concentrate on the total advance procedure alone. But you seem to have stuck to the steps faithfully, and if done right it will give you the right timing, so there must be something else going on.
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[kylemason]

From the timing I did on my van following these threads it does.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=307893&highlight=setting+timing
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=261067

Do you have spark at the plugs? Did you pop the dist. cap and visually check the alignment to number one cyl?
kyle
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88 1/2 Vanagon Wolfsburg Weekender.
"Old Blue"

[Mr. Electric Wizard]

Yup, and yup.
If I go 5deg. one way or the other, is that similar to a Type I engine in that 1 deg = ~ 1/16" ?
_________________
"Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know."
~ Cullen Hightower

(T)exas (C)oalition (B)uses
(H)eidenhammer (B)ully (B)oyz

--1966 De Luxe Camper

[tencentlife]

That's about right. If 2" is 35 deg., then 1" = 17.5, so at 1/16" you're as close to one degree as you could see by eye.

Also, look at the U and V notches on the pulley. They distance between them is 5 deg. Take it from there.
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

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[Mr. Electric Wizard]

Right on!
Now I just have to get these new fuel lines in place before I start some more tinkering...
This is originally how I found out I needed to replace my lines.
Saw the ends of the supply lines getting wet.
Glad I found out now, instead of later whilst on the road, on fire.

_________________
"Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know."
~ Cullen Hightower

(T)exas (C)oalition (B)uses
(H)eidenhammer (B)ully (B)oyz

--1966 De Luxe Camper

[Mr. Electric Wizard]

Ok, one more question regarding full advance timing.
A buddy told me to disconnect the Temp II wire before setting the timing at full advance?
Any merit to this?
_________________
"Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know."
~ Cullen Hightower

(T)exas (C)oalition (B)uses
(H)eidenhammer (B)ully (B)oyz

--1966 De Luxe Camper

[tencentlife]

That would negate the whole point of doing it that way.
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

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[Mr. Electric Wizard]

[11100100]

I know this is an old thread,

I believe I set my timing just like this.

Made a notch 2" from the V CW.
Connected light
Did not disconnect anything (02, iscu, T2)
Set gun to 40 deg advance
Brought the warmed up engine to 3k
Moved the Diz until the new mark was about at center line

[tencentlife]

Making the 2" mark is to be done in lieu of having a dial-in-advance timing gun. If you're using the mark, your gun should be at zero for all checks. If you want to use the dial-in, then only look at the TDC mark. One or the other. Both will be added togather and put you WAY off.
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

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[11100100]

Yesterday was the first time I have ever connected my timing light...any timing light for that matter.

To recap using a timing light with adjustable advance (and some quoting from previous 10cl material)

-The "U" denotes TDC of cyl #1
-The "V" denotes 5 degrees advance of TDC of cyl #1
-The max advance spec is 35deg +/- 5 at 3000rpm
-Let the engine warm up and leave everything connected
-If the timing light advance is set to 35deg, the U should show up at the witness point (seam) of the case
-If the timing light advance is set to 40 deg, the V should show up at the witness point (seam) of the case
-If timing is properly adjusted, at idle, the V should show up at the witness point with the advance setting on the timing light at 0 (and may jump around a bit)

If this is wrong I'll delete it to avoid future confusion. And I put nick in that nice powder coated pulley for nothing. :)

Question: Aside from suboptimal performance, can having improperly adjusted timing damage the engine at some point (short term/long term)? Just curious.
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87 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Edition

[tencentlife]

Spot on;

and yes.
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[zerotofifty]

On my 2.1 liter MV engine (1986 vanagon) with digfant i cant seem to make any sence out of the Bently manual instruction for timing. the chart is horrible to figure out.


Am i supposed to set timing at idle or at 2000 rpm, and does the water temp sendor need to be plugged in or not????


with sendor plugged in, at idle I get the timing mark to strobe at the case half mark, But the mark jumps around a good deal maybe a 1/4 inch or so. I tried putting the strobe light on both #1 and # 3 wires and I get this jumping around. I have new wires and plugs and new cap and rotor.

what is causing the jumping of the timing mark at idle, and what is the correct method of setting timing?

thanks

[Zero419]

did you read this thread?
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1987 Westy Auto Bostig 2.0 Ztec

[zerotofifty]

yeah read it, and I am still confused, I dont know if this thread is about a digifant, or digijet if that makes a differeance. seems that the procedurs are slightly different as far as i can tell from the Bently book.

still trying to figure this one out. my timing mark jumps around a lot at idle also (with sensors plugged in)

[zerotofifty]

AnyoneHelp!!!!!! I got a standard timing light, not adjustable. I got the notch on the biggest pully easy to see. at what RPM does the notch on the biggest pulley line up with the case half line with the timing lights? and does any of the sensors need to be unplugged for this?


It is not clear at all from the bently book, and I cant make sense of this post as there are too many methods posted (ie adjustable timing light and U marks and V marks etc...

I simply need to know the rpm at which teh notch on the biggest pulley should line up with a non-adjustable timing light and if any of the senosrs should be unplugged or not.

this is a MV code 1986 california van

please HELP ANY ONE!!!!!! And please dont ask if I read this post again, I have and I am confused still.

[drivenachodrive]

All right, I've followed the instructions for a non-advanceable timing light to a T, but things are going strangely.

I set the timing to 35deg BTDC at 3k RPM. The van runs like total garbage at this setting!

I tried going higher (40deg), but this caused the van to bog down and nearly die when throttled. I slowly worked my way backward from there and found a setting that worked, something like 30deg BTDC.

Now I went for a test drive. The previous day I was able to drive up a pretty steep incline, so I went there. Nacho couldn't go even halfway up. I got out and pulled the timing back a little to see if it would let me climb like before. I ended up around 15-18deg BTDC before it started acting right.

So, as it stands, I'm somewhere around 15-18deg BTDC at 3k RPM. It's way off from spec. Is it okay to drive like this? Seems to run all right, doesn't seem to ping, and has some climbing power. I just don't want to wreck my engine!
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[zippyslug31]

Bump as I'd like to know as well.

Man, I have always had terrible luck timing my van. I'll put it to where it runs best, and this is usually pretty far off from the normally accepted setting.

I've had my mechanic time it too, and I'm not sure what magic pixie dust they sprinkle, but it always runs EXCELLENT right afterward....... and looks to be around the same placement that I have it at.

I wish the distributor had a fine-adjustment screw type thing just so one could very casually advance/retard at small increments.
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[Ahwahnee]

Okay, I won't say read it again though the alternative is to more or less repeat what has been said. I will attempt to simplify and also word it so it works regardless of whether you have a Digijet or Digifant.

1. Close the Bentley and place it back on the shelf.

2. On the rear edge of the pulley (rim closest to you as you stand behind the van) dab a spot of white paint 2" clockwise from the U-shaped mark on that self same rim.

3. Run the engine at 3-4000 RPM and observe via the timing light the position of that dab of paint you added (hope you thought to let it dry).

4. Loosen & rotate the distributor as needed to get the timing so 'your' mark lines up with the case seam.

Walla! That should do it -- tighten the clamp on the distributor and re-check the timing.

* * * * * * * * * *

You can stop reading here or consider the following:

The U-mark is TDC on both engines. The 2" CW from the U-mark is about 35° advance.

No need to disconnect vacuum lines or anything else as this method takes all that into account.

Only loosen the distributor enough that it can be rotated, no need to get it really loose as that makes small moves harder and may allow it to move some more as you tighten.

Your timing light should either be one w/o an advance dial or else the dial should be set to 0°.

For that new timing mark I just cut a piece of masking tape 2" long and stick it on the rim of the pulley. Once I am satisfied it is correct I add the spot of paint.

Any timing approach is merely a starting point - you will want to listen to the engine for signs of pinging/pinking/knocking to tell if you have too much advance or to tell if more advance is possible.

I generally find a quiet stretch of road with a slight incline, drop down to about 30 mph in 4th gear, then try to accelerate hard. If there is going to be pinging that will usually do it. Some very slight pinging under these extreme circumstances is possibly acceptable. All this is easier to hear with the engine lid off.

Because of engine condition, altitude you live at, where you buy your gas, what octane you are putting in, etc no one can tell you what the ideal timing will be.

If, after all this, the engine runs like crap then you might suspect another problem exists. At that point the Bentley or ProTraining manual can come back off the shelf and a methodical examination of the compenents can begin.

I use this method (though I have found I can push the advance a bit farther perhaps because of the altitude here) and the Digijet runs well and gets 22-23 mpg hwy.