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Go Westy says use Premium Fuel. Do you agree?
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Yellow Van
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Go Westy says use Premium Fuel. Do you agree? Reply with quote

I would think 87 fuel is no problem with these vans. Opinions?

From Go Westy:
"VW Buses and Vanagons, by contrast, were designed in the '60s and '70s and DO NOT HAVE knock sensing capability. That is, if you decide to put low grade fuel in it, the engine has no way of adapting to it. The little engine will try to push that big box around with all its might, knocking or not, until it pukes. And unlike the newer Eurovans—with their larger, more sturdy engines—the engine in a Bus or Vanagon is BARELY able to push it down the road. Anyone who has spent any time behind the wheel of one of these vehicles, even one fitted with the largest engine GoWesty offers, the 2.5 liter, finds themselves trying to push the accelerator pedal through the floor just to keep up with traffic. It is a good idea to always run premium fuel in any Bus or Vanagon, period. You ask, “But what about the cost?” Well, at $5 per gallon, what is another twenty cents? A lot less than another engine, that’s for sure.

What about running hotter? Doesn’t my engine run at a HIGHER temperature with HIGHER octane gasoline? Baloney! Don’t believe it! It is just not true. Always run premium in any Bus or Vanagon, or you will risk destroying the engine."
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Mr. Electric Wizard
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admittedly my van ran better with 91 octane than with the 87 I've put in a few times.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucas Logic, I would say.
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Dogpilot
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it makes sense with the higher compression engines. Engines do not run cooler with premium fuel. The combustion runs slower. Higher octane was a prevention against detonation, or explosive combustion. Higher octane retard this speed. Cooler, no, but you can overheat components this way, except they usually fail from the explosive effect.

During WWII the brits where able to nearly double the power outputted from the Merlin engine via the use of the Yank's new high octane fuel. This allowed boosting and higher compressions on the same engine. Made the Merlin powered aircraft run circles around the German lead sleds, especially at altitude. This little advance made the ME109 a very streamlined coffin for many Germans.

Octane really has nothing to do with cooling. The high octane is needed in the GoWesty larger displacement engines which have higher compression.
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone ever frankensensored (not talking about the smelly stuff) a subaru or other knock sensor to an visual gauge/meter/??? and strapped it to a wasserboxer and checked for pinging? What are the odds that would work? Would it have to be tuned specifically for the motor or are they more generic?
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Go Westy says use Premium Fuel. Do you agree? Reply with quote

Utter hogwash. GoWesty has strong motivation to distort the truth since THEIR engines need higher octane. That is the basis of the performance increase they get, higher compression ratio in their higher performance engines. Since this makes them need higher cost fuel they try to justify it by falsely claiming all Vanagon engines should use the higher cost fuel anyway. VW does not say this and thousands of long term Vanagon owners know differently as well.

I have owned VW vans for 30+ years and put 100,000 miles or more on many of them, with 87 octane.

Mark


Yellow Van wrote:
I would think 87 fuel is no problem with these vans. Opinions?

From Go Westy:
"VW Buses and Vanagons, by contrast, were designed in the '60s and '70s and DO NOT HAVE knock sensing capability. That is, if you decide to put low grade fuel in it, the engine has no way of adapting to it. The little engine will try to push that big box around with all its might, knocking or not, until it pukes. ............It is a good idea to always run premium fuel in any Bus or Vanagon, period. You ask, “But what about the cost?” Well, at $5 per gallon, what is another twenty cents? A lot less than another engine, that’s for sure..............Always run premium in any Bus or Vanagon, or you will risk destroying the engine."
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jackbombay
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjrae wrote:
Has anyone ever frankensensored (not talking about the smelly stuff) a subaru or other knock sensor to an visual gauge/meter/?


I'm sure there are others that have done it, but here is a link to one you can buy,

http://www.viatrack.ca/
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pjrae
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh duh- forgot about the aftermarket turbo crowd....

well then I'd say spend $50 for a KS unit if you're concerned and it'll pay for itself in approx 13 tanks of regular gas, but if you ARE seeing it flash then you can post here and enlighten the masses and hush the GW naysayers (at least momentarily)
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woggs1
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always use the 87 on principle and have NEVER had any problems in both my vans. The few times I used the high octane stuff I could notice not difference. F*&*k the oil companies I say.
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devesvws
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so when is the last time any of you have heard a engine ping or knock??? with only very few exceptions do any cars made in the last 25 yrs need high octane fuel. a few yrs ago, and for the life of me cant find the article or what car magazine, did like a 30 different types of cars testing of reg vs premium only the very high output one's had any problem's
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have run many differents fuels in the same high compression DJ waterboxer and the more refined race fuels show a considerable increase in power.

Last edited by insyncro on Tue May 19, 2009 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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agreendaya
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't noticed a difference. Tried it a few times to see if it helped mileage, as I had heard it did, but it didn't in any way I could detect. I've got a snazzy little app on my centro that keeps track of my mileage for me, and the high octane doesn't seem to change anything.
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agreendaya wrote:
the high octane doesn't seem to change anything.


In a low compression motor without a knock sensing ignition system high octane gas won't change anything.

With a knock sensing ignition system you will get a bit more power/economy because the computer will advance your timing with high octane fuel compared to low octane fuel.

Higher octane = greater resistance to burning.

If the flame front in the combustion chamber exceeds the speed of sound you end up with an explosion (detonation, AKA "pinging") instead of a rapid burn. If you could see inside the combustion chamber detonation would be a yellow flame while a rapid burn would be blue like a gas stove...
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack,
Interesting you point out the color. There used to be a gizmo called a Colortune or some such name. It was a special clear spark plug that allowed you to adjust the mixture according to combustion color, never used one but thought the concept was interesting.

A while back a discussion went on about adapting a Digfant which incorporated the knock sensor. Somebody had read that the WBX head design didn't adapt well to the knock sensors. It was available concurrent with the WBX Digifant rollout but in the I4 engines. Since the WBX's ignition map's code is a deep secret it was deemed a difficult adaptation.
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogpilot wrote:
Jack,
Interesting you point out the color. There used to be a gizmo called a Colortune or some such name. It was a special clear spark plug that allowed you to adjust the mixture according to combustion color, never used one but thought the concept was interesting.


I remember those, but though they were kind of useless as with a normal car you can't look at the "colortune" while at WOT, although you can in a vangon with somebody else to drive Cool but not with the stock engine, you'd need to have done a I4 swap of some kind.

If I had a bunch of money into a rebuilt gas engine that I wanted max power and economy out of I'd get a J&S safeguard ignition system, Jake Raby uses them, not cheap, but they do adjust the ignition timing for each cylinder individually so one hot cylinder won't retard the timing for the lot of them. And if you do develop a hot cylinder you'll be able to see it on the dash gauge for the J&S which shows hwere the timing i for each cylinder.
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Last edited by jackbombay on Tue May 19, 2009 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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TheBlueTurtle
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not too keen on this tech mumbo jumbo.

however. i'm a very conscious and sensitive driver.


their is most defiantly an engine performance increase with higher octane fuel used.

i drive an 85 1.9, its low powered enough as it is.. the last thing i need is shit gas to make it worse.

91 Chevron, best stuff on earth.
87 Valero, worst.


everything else is everything else.
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone experienced better MPG by running premium? I just put in a tank of premium this weekend so I don't have a data point yet.

Steve
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:
agreendaya wrote:
the high octane doesn't seem to change anything.


In a low compression motor without a knock sensing ignition system high octane gas won't change anything.

With a knock sensing ignition system you will get a bit more power/economy because the computer will advance your timing with high octane fuel compared to low octane fuel.

Higher octane = greater resistance to burning.

If the flame front in the combustion chamber exceeds the speed of sound you end up with an explosion (detonation, AKA "pinging") instead of a rapid burn. If you could see inside the combustion chamber detonation would be a yellow flame while a rapid burn would be blue like a gas stove...


Well said!
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:
Dogpilot wrote:
Jack,
Interesting you point out the color. There used to be a gizmo called a Colortune or some such name. It was a special clear spark plug that allowed you to adjust the mixture according to combustion color, never used one but thought the concept was interesting.


I remember those, but though they were kind of useless as with a normal car you can't look at the "colortune" while at WOT, although you can in a vangon with somebody else to drive Cool but not with the stock engine, you'd need to have done a I4 swap of some kind.


I've got one, bought it at a garage sale years ago. Exactly as described. Blue when idling within range. But like he says, how do you use it under load?
Chassis dyno, that's how. Kinda pricey toy, though.
FWIW, I have ALWAYS found 87 octane gives better gas mileage that 90 octane gasohol. Or any other enhanced octane fuels. But I've only driven them 2 or 300,000 miles, so, "Your Mileage May Vary!".
I've even gone to using the 87 stuff in my 3.0 liter 911. I haven't managed to kill it in 6 years, but still trying. I'm a slow learner.
Al
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is as close as a can find Arrow Arrow http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high...e/(page)/1
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