| Author |
Message |
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
 Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: Mr. P's Build Thread- We're on the road again! |
 |
|
This is to document Kay's progress and ask questions about a '70 Fastback. If you all remember the B.M.W. Fastback that was red, yellow, and white, this is the one. Now, it is gray over blue.
So tired after 11 and a half hours, just want to keep it simple. Put 34 ICTs on a running with Progressive engine. The pump is pumping fuel, so that could not explain the no start. Opened the throttle, got more life. Adjusted the idle screws until it would start, but too fast of R.P.M..
So, why is there a normal idle speed, other than no start or sky high?
Why do the R.P.M.s increase during start up?
Thank you! 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
Last edited by Adriel Rowley on Wed May 27, 2009 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: Re: Mr. P's Build Thread- 34 ICT Hight Idle |
|
|
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
This is to document Kay's progress and ask questions about a '70 Fastback. If you all remember the B.M.W. Fastback that was red, yellow, and white, this is the one. Now, it is gray over blue.
So tired after 11 and a half hours, just want to keep it simple. Put 34 ICTs on a running with Progressive engine. The pump is pumping fuel, so that could not explain the no start. Opened the throttle, got more life. Adjusted the idle screws until it would start, but too fast of R.P.M..
So, why is there a normal idle speed, other than no start or sky high?
Why do the R.P.M.s increase during start up?
Thank you! |
adriel-- so sorry I didn't get your call. I have strep throat and spent a lot of the day in the ER trying to get some medication and I didn't have my cell phone handy. it sucks, even if you had called I can't really talk.
do me a favor and give me a little more info on what you did.. what pump are you using? mechanical or electric? whats the pressure coming out of the pump?
my guess(just from what you've written) is that it was running so pig rich (either because of jetting or the mixture screw) that the only way to get it to start would be upping the idle speed (allowing more air into the mixture) or opening the throttle(also adding more air) remember- cold these don't have a choke so you might have a harder time getting it to stay alive.
check the linkage first. make sure its working properly and not hanging up on anything-- the 34 ICT's that were on Gordon's engine needed some dicking around with before everything cleared (are these the same carbs?)
if they are gordons carbs, forget jetting cause it should be fine. if they're not gordons old carbs, remember they will more than likely need to be re-jetted. I'd call him and ask what those jets were.
is there a balance tube running between the two manifolds? did you check to see if the needle valves in the top of the carbs are properly working?
are you following the instructions provided on redline weber's website? those are a MUST have if you're gonna try and tune these. I wish i was in town so I could guide you... the paper is pretty easy to follow-- IIRC you have to set a few things before you try and start it and then work from there. do you have a snail looking air flow balance gauge?
basically I need some more info, I want to help
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Mr. P's Build Thread- 34 ICT Hight Idle |
|
|
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
Put 34 ICTs on a running with Progressive engine. The pump is pumping fuel, so that could not explain the no start. Opened the throttle, got more life. Adjusted the idle screws until it would start, but too fast of R.P.M..
So, why is there a normal idle speed, other than no start or sky high?
Why do the R.P.M.s increase during start up?
Thank you! |
When you installed the carbs, did you use the tin beetle gaskets, or actual fiber gaskets? I'm only asking, because the beetle gaskets shouldn't be used, and if they are, you'll have a vacuum leak. The vacuum leak caused from the wrong gaskets can cause high idle speeds as well.
Like Joe said, there aren't any chokes on these carbs, so it might need a few pumps of fuel for the engine to actually start (with the idle turned down low like it was when you installed them). My solex's are like this if the car has been parked for a couple of days. If it gets started every day, or every other day, then it doesn't need the extra shot of fuel.
There really aren't different idle settings, you set it where you want it, and basically leave it there. If it's changing, then you have a vacuum leak.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Mr. P's Build Thread- 34 ICT Hight Idle |
|
|
| JSMskater wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
This is to document Kay's progress and ask questions about a '70 Fastback. If you all remember the B.M.W. Fastback that was red, yellow, and white, this is the one. Now, it is gray over blue.
So tired after 11 and a half hours, just want to keep it simple. Put 34 ICTs on a running with Progressive engine. The pump is pumping fuel, so that could not explain the no start. Opened the throttle, got more life. Adjusted the idle screws until it would start, but too fast of R.P.M..
So, why is there a normal idle speed, other than no start or sky high?
Why do the R.P.M.s increase during start up?
Thank you! |
adriel-- so sorry I didn't get your call. I have strep throat and spent a lot of the day in the ER trying to get some medication and I didn't have my cell phone handy. it sucks, even if you had called I can't really talk.
do me a favor and give me a little more info on what you did.. what pump are you using? mechanical or electric? whats the pressure coming out of the pump?
my guess(just from what you've written) is that it was running so pig rich (either because of jetting or the mixture screw) that the only way to get it to start would be upping the idle speed (allowing more air into the mixture) or opening the throttle(also adding more air) remember- cold these don't have a choke so you might have a harder time getting it to stay alive.
check the linkage first. make sure its working properly and not hanging up on anything-- the 34 ICT's that were on Gordon's engine needed some dicking around with before everything cleared (are these the same carbs?)
if they are gordons carbs, forget jetting cause it should be fine. if they're not gordons old carbs, remember they will more than likely need to be re-jetted. I'd call him and ask what those jets were.
is there a balance tube running between the two manifolds? did you check to see if the needle valves in the top of the carbs are properly working?
are you following the instructions provided on redline weber's website? those are a MUST have if you're gonna try and tune these. I wish i was in town so I could guide you... the paper is pretty easy to follow-- IIRC you have to set a few things before you try and start it and then work from there. do you have a snail looking air flow balance gauge?
basically I need some more info, I want to help |
Been there, mo fun. Hope you got your drugs, hope you are feeling better, and get well.
We, and I mean she did help out, got rid of the aftermarket electric fuel pump. This meant getting drenched in gasoline (my skin still is sore), but now there is one line going to a mechanical pump, and a line blocked of at both ends; previously it was not.
All the F.I. stuff is removed and engine compartment organized. The head temp is present, so I am almost certain it is not 2000 as sold, but a 1600. Could be wrong, but this engine does not look rebuilt. Oh, and it is a J case.
These are the infamous community carbs. Gordon never properly jetted them, so they are rich.
The balance tube is clamped.
There is something squirting fuel when linkage pumped.
I followed the instructions, and then upped the idle. This is where I am stuck. Either it does not run, or is screaming. When trying to start, there is no sign of life, unless the throttles are open. In which case it just coughs, if that is the right term.
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
Put 34 ICTs on a running with Progressive engine. The pump is pumping fuel, so that could not explain the no start. Opened the throttle, got more life. Adjusted the idle screws until it would start, but too fast of R.P.M..
So, why is there a normal idle speed, other than no start or sky high?
Why do the R.P.M.s increase during start up?
Thank you! |
When you installed the carbs, did you use the tin beetle gaskets, or actual fiber gaskets? I'm only asking, because the beetle gaskets shouldn't be used, and if they are, you'll have a vacuum leak. The vacuum leak caused from the wrong gaskets can cause high idle speeds as well.
Like Joe said, there aren't any chokes on these carbs, so it might need a few pumps of fuel for the engine to actually start (with the idle turned down low like it was when you installed them). My solex's are like this if the car has been parked for a couple of days. If it gets started every day, or every other day, then it doesn't need the extra shot of fuel.
There really aren't different idle settings, you set it where you want it, and basically leave it there. If it's changing, then you have a vacuum leak. |
On the left there was a metal gasket with a thick rubbery gasket, and the left a metal gasket, to which we added a cereal box gasket. There are rubbery gaskets between the carbs and the manifolds.
I did cycle the linkage before starting, but it did not help. With the idle at one and a half turns in as specified, there is no life. Open the throttles, and you get coughs. I have them about two to two and a half in. I did a lot of quarters, so not real sure. What ever I did on one, I did it one the other.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gordon def. did get the jetting fixed IIRC, so they *should* be working
HOWEVER
if it's a 2000.... then the jets will be all wrong again. does she have any paper work that says it's been bored larger? I have to agree with you, it's dubious, but it would explain a lot.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JSMskater wrote: |
Gordon def. did get the jetting fixed IIRC, so they *should* be working
HOWEVER
if it's a 2000.... then the jets will be all wrong again. does she have any paper work that says it's been bored larger? I have to agree with you, it's dubious, but it would explain a lot. |
Gordon told me clearly that he never installed the right jets, and was left running rich.
No paper work to prove it. Considering that the P.O. was selling it for $2400 because of the paint, he would have motive to lie about the engine, when Kay would not pay for the rattle can paint job. Oh, and the rubber boot was torn; now replaced. If a new engine, they should have replaced it instead of installing the ripped one.
Any more ideas?
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
without getting in there and listening to the carbs, it's hard to say. can you pull the carbs apart and record the numbers on the jets?
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JSMskater wrote: |
| without getting in there and listening to the carbs, it's hard to say. can you pull the carbs apart and record the numbers on the jets? |
Talked to Kay, and was upset we where not going to meet today. Told her better to be safe than sorry.
Would a video help?
I would not want to touch them more than I have to, because I know only what I have read, and that is not much.
How long do you think all this is going to take? Apparently I have a week to get her's and mine ready for the Classic. 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Take them apart in a clean Drain Pan. Inspect/clean with gas and a paint brush. You might need different jets, but it could be just a piece of DIRT in there! I'll bet they'd run better afterward. Write down the Jet numbers for each carb while they're apart.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| Take them apart in a clean Drain Pan. Inspect/clean with gas and a paint brush. You might need different jets, but it could be just a piece of DIRT in there! I'll bet they'd run better afterward. Write down the Jet numbers for each carb while they're apart. |
Trouble is, I find no specification/information on how. Kay needs this for work, the Classic, etcetera. I do not want to mess things up more than I already have.
I did find my pie tin, so all I need is my garage tooth brush, and the information.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Those 2 websites should be all you need/find to tune them. Email Nate or kiefernet and ask about jetting etc. You might have to order some different jets? Kay is depending on You! 
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That second website is Nate's Aircooled Technology or something and he say's "email me".
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I dug out my 34 ICT install instructions from CB Performance. They say to set the throttle butterfly with an .008 inch feeler blade, and set the mixture screws to 2 1/2 turns out. This will provide an even starting point for the engine. The .008 inch feeler setting will result in a slightly high idle, but that can be adjusted after the engine is running. Disconnect the right carb linkage, and check to see if it just slips back into the mounting hole without it making the left carb linkage move at all. If the right link is too long, or too short to fit into it's hole, then you need to adjust that link to match (so it just slips in without disturbing anything).
After the engine has started, blip the throttle and then bring it up to operating temp. Now you can balance (fine tune) the carbs. This is where the uni-syn (snail looking tool or other version) comes in, as you want to balance the air entering the engine. If you base set the carbs (like I mentioned above) they should be pretty close. If the idle is high, back the idle set screw out 1/8th of a turn. Also you want to check and see if one carb leads the other (it might pop or spit fuel out the top). If this happens, then disconnect the right link, and adjust it a little more (making it longer or shorter as needed). Note; I don't block (clamp off) the balance tube, as I use to help tune the engine, so I leave it open. Also, the jets in my carbs are 1.35 mains, and .60 idles. I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I ended up having to install balance pipe on blankmange's engine. He did not have one previously when he was running it as a 1600. He is now 1776 with a 110 equiv. cam.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| Those 2 websites should be all you need/find to tune them. Email Nate or kiefernet and ask about jetting etc. You might have to order some different jets? Kay is depending on You! |
Thank you!
Who is Nate?
Jets are pricey I have heard... |
Adriel I always wonder who it is that's sitting in your ear claiming everything costs a fortune. where? what is "pricey"? if you mean MAYBE 12 dollars for the two jets you'll need to change, then thats just silly. that isn't pricey. when I worked at OVW individual jets, depending on the carb, ran anywhere between a dollar and 4 dollars depending. they are not expensive. at all.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dirtsandwich
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2008
Posts: 625
Location: SW Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JSMskater wrote: |
| Adriel I always wonder who it is that's sitting in your ear claiming everything costs a fortune. where? what is "pricey"? if you mean MAYBE 12 dollars for the two jets you'll need to change, then thats just silly. that isn't pricey. when I worked at OVW individual jets, depending on the carb, ran anywhere between a dollar and 4 dollars depending. they are not expensive. at all. |
There you go ruining it... That was going towards my kids college fund!
_________________
71 Squareback
77 Bus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bobnotch wrote: |
Well, I dug out my 34 ICT install instructions from CB Performance. They say to set the throttle butterfly with an .008 inch feeler blade, and set the mixture screws to 2 1/2 turns out. This will provide an even starting point for the engine. The .008 inch feeler setting will result in a slightly high idle, but that can be adjusted after the engine is running. Disconnect the right carb linkage, and check to see if it just slips back into the mounting hole without it making the left carb linkage move at all. If the right link is too long, or too short to fit into it's hole, then you need to adjust that link to match (so it just slips in without disturbing anything).
After the engine has started, blip the throttle and then bring it up to operating temp. Now you can balance (fine tune) the carbs. This is where the uni-syn (snail looking tool or other version) comes in, as you want to balance the air entering the engine. If you base set the carbs (like I mentioned above) they should be pretty close. If the idle is high, back the idle set screw out 1/8th of a turn. Also you want to check and see if one carb leads the other (it might pop or spit fuel out the top). If this happens, then disconnect the right link, and adjust it a little more (making it longer or shorter as needed). Note; I don't block (clamp off) the balance tube, as I use to help tune the engine, so I leave it open. Also, the jets in my carbs are 1.35 mains, and .60 idles. I hope this helps. |
This is what I was looking for! 
How would .006 be?
I could not get Gordon's snail, so I was going to use a fuel hose. I am not going to purchase something that I am not going to use.
Is this it:
http://www.the-ovw.com/cat/product_info.php?cPath=670_79_457_101&products_id=531
http://www.the-ovw.com/cat/product_info.php?products_id=390
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
| I ended up having to install balance pipe on blankmange's engine. He did not have one previously when he was running it as a 1600. He is now 1776 with a 110 equiv. cam. |
I have the balance tube installed, with clamps.
| JSMskater wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| Those 2 websites should be all you need/find to tune them. Email Nate or kiefernet and ask about jetting etc. You might have to order some different jets? Kay is depending on You! |
Thank you!
Who is Nate?
Jets are pricey I have heard... |
Adriel I always wonder who it is that's sitting in your ear claiming everything costs a fortune. where? what is "pricey"? if you mean MAYBE 12 dollars for the two jets you'll need to change, then thats just silly. that isn't pricey. when I worked at OVW individual jets, depending on the carb, ran anywhere between a dollar and 4 dollars depending. they are not expensive. at all. |
There are several categories I think of:
over $2.00, expensive/pricey
$100 and over, a fortune
It also depends on what it is, and percent market value, between 50 and 75 percent and over 75 percent. Then, a combonation of the two. I am slightly complex...  
Just paid over $7 for a soapy car, and it stole my 50 cents. To tell you the least, I was mad, and I am not normally.
Thank you for the OVW suggestion! Do you know if there are any local shops that have them at that price? How long to ship?
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
Last edited by Adriel Rowley on Mon May 25, 2009 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
