Motor Problem..please help diagnose

[shorepig]

Howesight.....

WOW! Thanks man...u just made my weekend. I was out in Squamish this weekend camping out of my compact p.up with my girlfriend, dog, and three windsurf boards and missing my westy BIGTIME. It's just not the same without the camper. Both my girlfriend and I tried to enjoy the weekend but of course every ten minutes we'd see another westy cruise by. Even the pooch looked pissed that she had to sleep in the tent. Ha.

That is very very kind of you, and I will likely take u up on that offer. the van is going back in on Tuesday for further inspection. Rudy and Peter's have already checked out the valvetrain and have reported that it's fine, so the next step is the heads need to come off so I'm bringing it in to Vancouver West Motors. Rudy and Peter's don't get too involved in major motor work.

Perhaps I should take it to John at Van Wonder. I'll look into that. If it is major, we will likely just have the van towed back home, as a major repair bill is not in the budget right now. So I'll let ya know the outcome.

Photodave, we should definitely have a "Great White North" Samba meet up soon.

Jptech....the valvetrain was just checked out and seemed all good, the injectors are new as well as the rad and some coolant pipes/hoses.

[Alan Brase]

[shorepig]

the latest on the motor saga....

A borescope was used to diagnose that #1 piston is shot. There is a piece of the piston that appears to have separated from the piston and gone missing. This is unfortunate, as this was also the cause of the first motor failure. What would cause this???? My injectors are new with 20 000 kms, as well as my radiator, and the cooling system functions fine, the timing was good, we use high octane fuel????? No one seems to have any answers, including the folks who supplied us with the motors.

Here are my options:

#1 - My mechanic is advising against just simply replacing the piston and rings on #1 because he is concerned that one of the other 3 may also fail in the near future. He is also worried that the fragment missing from the old piston may have fallen down into the bottom end, and could possibly damage or have already damaged the bearings or other components. He realizes that the missing piece or fragments could have gone out the exhaust, but says it is also possible they could still be inside. He also said that the head above #1 cylinder could be shot too. If no head work needs to be done this option would cost me about $800 parts and labor. With new head I'm looking at about $1200. This option would still not guarantee that there aren't any fragment s bouncing around in the bottom end.

#2 - Since this motor was installed in spring of 08' GW has since changed their pistons and gone to a different brand which now have piston squirters??? What are these squirters and what do they do? I am considering ordering up a set of four piston/ ring sets and replacing them all with this new system. They claim it is more reliable. This option will cost me about $1500 parts and labor. With new head $1900. this option still does not guarantee the bottom end is free of fragments.

#3 - Get rid of this motor, because it has already let us down 2x, and search for a used stock motor for cheap, and install it myself. This would be the least expensive option, I would get to learn a heck of a lot, and it would be more reliable..maybe. , but we would be out the $12000 we have already invested in this motor saga. This is what our mechanic is recommending we do.




Please!!!! Help us decide what to do!

[tencentlife]

They've got a bad lot of pistons. GW should own this one, just like the last one.
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Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[rblake3]

The oil squirters are used to cool the pistons. Many OHV 4 cyl performance oriented engines have these. My 16v GTi is one example.

I'm with tencent, GW should fix this motor. You can still replace it with a used lump to get back on the road but the GW engine should be rebuilt by GW for you or they eat the last rebuild and pay you back. In a dream world you could use the money to get a "fill in the blank with your favorite Samba rebuilder or conversion engine" or something.

Whatever the case, this is not right. GW needs to make it right or risk their reputation here at the Samba.
_________________
90 Vanagon Carat Wander Wagon
88 16v GTi
01 1.8T Beetle
94 Miata
Vanagon H4 E-Code Lighting Upgrade page

[photogdave]

Fourth option: Take Howesight up on his offer.
Although honestly, the fact that GW changed the piston design all but says they know the old design is defective. This practically admits liability. You should insist they replace the motor with a completely new one of the new design or take them to court. Seriously.
I hate legal crap and all that and it would be the last thing I would do in a perfect world but sometimes you gotta fight for your rights!
_________________
89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS

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[shorepig]

so the squirters cool the pistons....hmmm..it's all making sense to me now I can't believe how shitty this is.

[shorepig]

Tencent..the last motor still cost us $2000 to replace. That's with the warranty.

[Terry Kay]

The first time the engine went bad--Shame on Lucas and his Tijuana pistons.

The second time--Lucas should be hanging his head, and at least offer to get this ironed out for you.

I'd give him a call--by-pass his employee's and tell him up front, he was installing inferior engine components.

No way that engine should have smoked twice in that short of a time--especially in the same hole.

Maybe he'll cut you a deal.

Then install it yourself---that way you can save some bucks.

Try it anyway--all's he can say is no.

Isn't that proctoscope a neat gizmo?
Saved a bunch of time and got you an answer of what's up inside that cylinder pretty quick.

I use mine often for crazy situations like this.

Home Depot has them now--your not locked into a Snap On Unit, and they are pretty reasonably priced.

New toy's for your tool box---
_________________
T.K.

[ftp2leta]

If you need a cheap but good running engine let me know in private.

We have some in PA.

I won't comment on GW engine design. Or on their general behaviour lately.

It's a very sad story. Everyone here will be please to help if you want to do the installation yourself. I have enough image to built an Install/remove procedure for the 2.1L.

I'm removing one this morning for a conversion, i will take more picture, instead of taking 45 minutes to remove this one i can take another 39minutes to take picture.

Good luck

Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
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My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
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[240Gordy]

put in that free engine for the summer so you can enjoy your westy and go after GW to fix the problem.

Good luck. Hope you can get it sorted out. Organise a barn raising engine install. I'd volunteer but I work weekends. T W Th are okay though.

Gordy
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR

[tencentlife]

[shorepig]

Thanks 10 cent for the squirter info. Now I understand. GW has changed their piston design, and these new pistons can be used in my motor...but I will not have the "squirter" option, as that is something that the newest engine block design has built in. These new pistons were re-designed to manage the heat better, especially in the GW 2.4 and 2.5 models, where the pistons are thinner in the crown, and more prone to heat failure. GW now uses these pistons and the squirters in all their motors. It has been claimed that only 50 out of 4000 pistons have encountered the problem that I have had happen 2x, in two different motors....piston failure.

So those are my two options:

1) replace my one failed piston with the old piston design, in order to match up with my existing pistons...$800 - $1200. I'd definitely be selling the motor if we make this choice, because it's likely one of the other three pistons will fail. If anyone wants to buy a motor that has cost us $12000 for a couple grand, let me know..

2) replace all 4 pistons with the new and improved pistons, $1500 - $1900
keep our fingers crossed, and install some other form of engine monitoring system besides a temp gauge and oil light. What about a gauge that monitors exhaust temp?

Besides giving me advice on how to drive up long hills, and listen for detonation when climbing, GW has no other advice for avoiding another piston failure situation. They will give me half price on a piston/ring set, and that's all.

My mechanic mentioned that perhaps I should disconnect the vacuum advance hose from my distributor, as my old distributor may have worn out springs, thereby messing up my timing at high rpms??? He didn't think that this motor was designed around a mechanical advance distributor. I don't fully understand is theory, but it made sense at the time.

Anyways, who knows what I'll do here, but I'm not happy with the situation, or the service I've been receiving from GW. In any case, the van has been put to rest, likely for a few months, until we can afford the repair. This whould be a reeeeeeeal fun summer at home.

[shorepig]

The van is finally in to have the motor worked on. We have decided on option #2, go with four new pistons (newer design). Hopefully the heads will still be in good condition.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what else can / should be checked out when the motor is out and the heads are off? My mechanic mentioned that there is a slight chance that there may be a piece of a broken piston lurking somewhere in the bottom end of the motor, but he says there is no way of knowing that unless he tears the bottom end apart. GoWesty says there is no way a piece of the piston crown can get into the bottom end of the motor, and would only flow out through the exhaust.

This is our last attempt (third) at giving this GW motor a try. With the "new and improved GW pistons" we are hoping we will no longer have any more piston failures. Aside from checking timing, fuel delivery, cooling system is there anything else we should have checked out which may have contributed to the re-occurring piston failures? This is our last chance.

[funagon]

I hope Gowesty gave you a break on those new pistons. In fact I would hope you get them for free, considering that Gowesty knew that the old design was prone to self-destruction. In any case, I'm glad you're fixing the van and I hope and expect that the new piston design works a lot better.

To answer your question about preventing another meltdown: I would recommend an external oil cooler, aka "remote oil cooler" setup. Search for tencentlife's setup here, and on the shoptalk forums waterboxer - oxyboxer forum. There's more than one way to setup but tencent did a nice job with photos.

I don't know how much this would cool the pistons, but it has to help some. And it's good for the overall health and longevity of the waterboxer anyhow.

If you do this, use the mocal thermostatic sandwich adapter with whatever hoses and exchanger your mechanic can set up. Here's a couple links:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=102662

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=276337
_________________
1990 GL 7-passenger
2.2 liter WBX

[tencentlife]

I do sell that as a kit, by the way.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[shorepig]

Funagon....the GW pistons were $300, and the labor will be $1400.

The saga to date: - first 2.3 gw motor w/all related expenses $9000
(got about 1000 miles out of this one)
- second 2.3 gw motor / related expenses $2200
( got about 6000 miles out of this motor)
- second 2.3 gw motor / new piston set $1700
(hopefully this one will last, not counting on it)

So I certainly wouldn't call that a deal, would you? After a year and a half of breakdowns, stress, and a total cost of $12,900 we will come out of it with what has proven to be an unreliable motor than MIGHT last....for a while...or maybe a long time. At this point all we can do is keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best.

I'm trying to stay optimistic..believe it or not. I will definitely look into an external oil cooler.

[quarters]

wow what a downer.

does anyone have a picture of what one of these heat tabs looks like, i want to search my engine for one to see if it's rebuilt.
_________________
90' westy, 4spd.

[RCB]

I think that Lucas over at Go Westy is afraid or too embarressed to post here on The Samba.

He should belly-up and explain why his motors are failing as regular as the leaves that fall from a tree.

How about it Lucas

[shorepig]

UPDATE:

I've finally had the new pistons installed, and I'm breaking them in ever so carefully. Neither my mechanic or I could see any difference between these "new and improved pistons" vs. the older style that have failed me 2x. The new pistons are supposed to dissipate heat more effectively. While breking in the new pistons and rings, I hve been using a max of half throttle, and on uphills, gearing down. I've put about 750 km's on the motor and it feels very good, except I encountered a bit of detonation the other day, and the motor seems to be running very hot....AGAIN. The temp light has not come on, but my temp gauge needle is almost always sitting just above where the temp gauge light bulb is (the little red one). So it's hot, but I'm hoping not too hot???? My mechanic check the engine temp with a thermometer of some type and said it is definitely hotter than a stock motor would run, by about 5 degrees....at idle.


My mechanic would like to try a few things to bring the temp down, and I would like to hear other peoples opinions on this. Remember, I drive an 85 automatic that came stock with a 1.9, and now that same cooling system is dealing with a 2.3 GW motor.

Here's what he would like to try:

1) Retard the timing a bit
2) Replace the stock thermostat with a VR6 thermostat. He said when a VR6 thermostat opens, the opening is a bigger diameter, and will let more coolant flow through the thermostat at a higher rate than the stock thermostat does. He said this will helo too cool things down.

I'd like to hear our opinions on this.