Motor Problem..please help diagnose

[iceracer]

Why not just go with a colder thermostat that vancafe sells. BTW, my 86 2.1 runs normally just at the outer/upper edge of the led. The fan cycles if it goes higher. Doesn't seem to me it is too hot. And granted I would hazzard a quess the 2.3's may run a bit hotter, no???

I personally don't think 5 degrees matters in temp.

Try backing off the timing a bit to get rid of the detonation.
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86 Syncro Wolfsburg edition
63 Beetle (The Iceracer)

[shorepig]

Ok, I've put on 1100 km's, there have been no more detonation sounds, I've only been running at half throttle and the van is running nice, BUT....the temp light did flash in yesterday's 30 degree heat for about 10 secs (that's hot for BC) in a Mc YAk's drive through. Tomorrow it goes into the mechanic for a check up. He will likely retard the timing a tiny bit, check the valves, and change the oil and filter.

He also mentioned disconnecting the vacuum hose that goes to the distributor. Can someone please explain to me the theory behind this?

[shorepig]

Update:

The new gowesty 2.3L pistons and rings have about 10 000 kms on them, and I'm encountering pinging again!!!

My mechanic that installed the new and improved gowesty pistons and cylinders reset the timing and also installed a VR6 thermostat 10 000 kms ago. The van has been running well for the past 10 000 kms, has never gotten too hot, but never really seemed to have much power. If we advanced the timing, the van would be faster, but the pinging would come back. I have driven the van like this for about 10 000kms with no problems.

A couple days ago, I just noticed some detonation sounds when pulling grades at hwy speeds.

I brought the van in to the mechanic, and these are the results:

compression test: 115 115 115 115 (pretty low?)
leakdown test: 30% leakage 30% leakage 70% leakage 70% leakage

The two cylinders with the poor leak down results showed high levels of carbon build up inside. My mechanic has done some sort of purge in the motor to attempt to flush out the carbon deposits in the hopes that the two weak cylinders will clean up and get better leakdown test results. I am waiting for the results.

So, my question is, what the heck is causing this detonation and carbon build up? The van motor has new injectors, all new cooling system, the top end of the motor was rebuilt 10 000 kms ago. Could poor fuel delivery be the culprit? When I purchased this van 4 years ago, it had been sitting for a few years, so I'm wondering if there is water or rust in the fuel tank.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, as we have now gone through 2 fresh 2.3's and a new set of pistons and cylinders. We can't handle this anymore!
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85 Westy
92 Mitsubishi Mighty Max 4x4 V6
74 Honda CB500T cafe racer
2013 ktm 690r
Sector nine pintail

[jetpoweredmonkey]

Man, I just read your whole story. What a major bummer. Sorry you're still having problems.

Not to rain on the parade, but reading your post of Jul 20 2009, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you have problems OUTSIDE the engine and you probably have all along. Also, you might want to check around for another mechanic, because there is some extremely suspect logic being employed here.

First off, if your temp gauge shows hot, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. Yes, it could be a faulty gauge or sender. Senders are cheap, put a new one in. Adding a "larger diameter" thermostat isn't going to do jack. The inside of the coolant pipes is still the same diameter! Furthermore, adding a lower temp thermostat is a band-aid, in my opinion. Those who run one may have a good reason to do it but it is NOT a fix for a cooling system that's running hot (clogged radiator, air bubbles, etc). Better than a low temp t-stat, in my opinion, is a normal t-stat with a low temp fan switch to kick the rad fan on sooner.

Your t-stat opens and shuts all the time when you are driving. Most of the time when they fail, they stick open, and your gauge reads low all the time. When you are parked in traffic with a stuck open t-stat, only then does the gauge come up to the proper middle range (if everything else is in good order) because that is a condition that would have the t-stat wide open anyway. When you hit the highway, it closes fully or partially to restrict the coolant flow and keep the engine running in the middle of the gauge - otherwise, the radiator would over-cool with all the airflow and your gauge would read low.

Make sense? So - VR6 t-stat or not - my guess would be a big fat bubble in the cooling system somewhere, especially on a 1.9, especially ruling out a clogged-up old radiator. Maybe you've since cleared that issue up.

Next - retarding the timing. This is something you would have to do if the compression ratio was not right, that's for sure. Is it a possibility that the GW pistons you're using cause the CR to be too high? Sure, but lots of other people would also be having that problem with their GW pistons. It doesn't seem too likely based on the fact that I don't see other posts here regarding detonation issues.

Removing the vacuum hose from the distributor is also a huge shadetree band-aid and is NOT a solution to your problem!

As for the carbon build-up - there are two possible sources. Too much fuel, or oil getting past the rings or valve guides. I think you can rule out worn guides with your new engine. Damaged, poorly seated or improperly installed rings could cause oil blow by. Does the engine use oil? How much? A bad fuel pressure regulator or O2 sensor could cause a rich mixture. How do you know there is carbon build-up? Did your mechanic remove the heads? Are the plugs normal in color, or are they caked with soot or wet with oil?

[shorepig]

I will find out today what the mechanics diagnoses is for the motor. In terms of the cooling system, the gauge is showing correct temps, reading mid way on the gauge on the hwy, and just below the red led in traffic jams with the fan coming on.

The oil consumption has been good, but I believe it has gotten worse in the past 1000 kms, just slightly though.

I should have had the mechanic do a compression test after he installed the new piston and cylinder sleeves....that was pretty stupid of me. The mechanic I have the van at now is NOT the same as the guy who put in the piston set, and I am watching him like a hawk, but then again, what do I know. I can't believe how difficult it is to find a good, solid, and honest mechanic in this city. Sad to say, but I've lost all trust in mechanics.
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85 Westy
92 Mitsubishi Mighty Max 4x4 V6
74 Honda CB500T cafe racer
2013 ktm 690r
Sector nine pintail

[funagon]

[shorepig]

Purging is complete, and now the mechanic is getting leak down test results of 15% on all four cylinders. So that's good news. He has also reconnected the vacuum line to the distributor, changed the plugs (dirty) and reset the timing. He will be test driving the van tomorrow, then doing some tests on the fuel delivery.

Does anyone know what they would have used to "purge" the cylinders? What is considered a good leak down result?
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85 Westy
92 Mitsubishi Mighty Max 4x4 V6
74 Honda CB500T cafe racer
2013 ktm 690r
Sector nine pintail

[shorepig]

Still having problems with this damn motor!!!!

My mechanic has reset the timing and retarded it a lot to avoid pinging. The acceleration of the van is now very slow, unless I am at hwy speeds. He said it was very difficult to get the pinging to go away. He also did a fuel pressure test, and said he ruled out water in the fuel, and said the injectors are AOK.

So, I was in a traffic jam the other day, the van got hot (not red light hot) but the fan did come on and off. When I pulled away, there it was again the darn PINGING. Once I nursed the van up to hwy speeds and it had a chance to cool, the pinging dissapeared. I was running Canadian 92 octane at the time. Just to experiment, I ran a bit of 87 octane in the van and it pinged under any load.

As well, I have put about 1500 miles on the van since it has been at the mechanics, and since then I have had to put in 1 liter of oil.

I can't handle this any more!!! Anyone out there have any ideas as to what is causing this? Gowesty doesn't know, my mechanic doesn't seem to know. Does anyone know?
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85 Westy
92 Mitsubishi Mighty Max 4x4 V6
74 Honda CB500T cafe racer
2013 ktm 690r
Sector nine pintail

[tencentlife]

Are you running the 1.9 distributor? Has anyone analysed the ignition advance/retard according to the specs in Bentley? Are the vac lines even plumbed correctly?

Which plugs are you using? Are they the right heat range?

No other comments to add, there's too much in this thread to review it all so you may have already covered these questions.
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Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[shorepig]

Tencent,

I'm not sure if I am running a 1.9L distributor. Here is a list of what they put in with the 2.3L from my gowesty invoice:

ITEM 03-312 Distributor cap (S3D6) $9.95
ITEM 04-038 Ignition rotor, bosch, 80-85 vanagon (S3D5) $6.95
ITEM 09-180 Ignition wire set, bosch, 83-91 vanagon (S3C3) $59.95

Q-"Has anyone analysed the ignition advance/retard according to the specs in Bentley?"

Not sure, I'm hoping so.

Q-"Which plugs are you using? Are they the right heat range?"

The plugs being used are WR7CC Bosch Super Plus (cool)

Q "Are the vac lines even plumbed correctly?"

Currently, they are. Or, I've been told they are. The current mechanic that has just been working on the van re-connected a vacuum line that was off. Prior to this, the last mechanic (the one who installed new gowesty pistons and rings) made these adjustments. This is what he wrote on the invoice:

replace thermostat with VR6 180 D
adjusted timing to 6 ATDC
keep vacuum advance hose on slight lean roll feel to cruise
checked 02 signal, ok
may be due to engine seating.

So, since the guy did this work above (old mechanic), the van was running well, but started pinging again. So, I took it to yet another mechanic (current guy), and this is what he found before he worked on the van:

Results of leakdown test: 1-70% 2-15% 3-70% 4-15%

He said there was a huge a mount of carbonization, and did a purge which was to flush out the carbon.

After purging leakdown results: 1-18% 2-15% 3-15% 4-15%
After purging compression test 1-110 2-115 3-110 4-115

He then inspected the fuel filter and said it was ok, re-adjusted timing, and checked co%. He said it was very hard to get the pinging (detonation) to go away unless he retarded the timing alot. The result is I now have a very sluggish 2.3L and it still pings when it is hot, or when I am pulling a long hwy grade.


Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it!
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85 Westy
92 Mitsubishi Mighty Max 4x4 V6
74 Honda CB500T cafe racer
2013 ktm 690r
Sector nine pintail

[Gauche1968]

Wow, I can't believe Go Westy has so little respect for its customers that it would actually make you foot the bill for this piece of junk motor. Have you talked to Lucas about this?

I would seriously be considering legal action at this point.
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1984 Vanagon GL
1984 Vanagon Westy

[morymob]

After reading all this post again it seems the root problem is cheap china junk parts. Has anyone tried sending an old piston to EGGE and see what they offer. I know pistons etc their specialty, especially ones u can't locate as in antiques etc.

[240Gordy]

timing could still be off and causing this problem, methinks this is a problem outside the engine, fuel or ignition.

I have a timing light you can borrow to check with, it is dead easy using Tencent's method to check if your timing is set correstly under load (which is when you are having the problem)

PM me, I am in Richmond all weekend.
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Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR

[Ahwahnee]

Perhaps this comes under the heading: 'straws, Grasping at' but...

Are you still using the original 1.9L ECU with the 2.3L engine?

I seem to recall that GoWesty warned somewhere on their site that some folks get by just fine with their old ECU but that others find they have to change to a later ECU when they do a displacement increase.

That dingus is a 'black box' to me (well d'oh -- it really is a silver box) so I do not know what all it would control that might change with an install of a 2.3L engine.[/u]

[TremcladWhite]

[noganav]

Just read the whole story. Sorry man. 'Only' 50 of 4000 pistons failed? That's 5% of those engines! The red one they've had for sale forever crapped itself too at least once, (but I think maybe twice) they were originally trying to re sell that van as a newly rebuilt engine but without an engine warranty. That's confidence right there. Though now I think that they have now added the warranty to sweeten the deal. Scary stuff either way for such low mileage engines.

Good luck.

[mellow cat]

Go buy a Waller 87*F thermostat ?(Celsius). Only takes minutes, pull the old one out(vr6 or otherwise). It's manufacturer that is in question. Note any differences in opening "flap" and it's outer diameter. On certain brands of thermostats will have a "too large" of flap and will not open fully inside the thermostat housing. This "chokes" of proper flow from the rad.

Wish I could remember that manufacturers name???

Give it a look, couldn't hurt.

MC

Iphone

[RicoS]

[RCB]

"gumming his black beans and rice"....now that there is funny. I gotta remember that one as I say stuff like that in jest.

[gbrandt]

Any update on the engine?
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