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Sniperx
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2010
Posts: 777
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:39 am Post subject: |
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A bug is a very different animal than a bus. The air around the motor is different, the vents are different, the aerodynamics are different, the vent placement is different. Mostly....it's monkey see monkey do. Most those guys who are "overheating" don't have any instrumentation outside oil temp to them they are doing so.
No one is saying not to do it. What I am saying is why do you feel the need? I have the same setup you are proposing...I was even carbd for a while with dual 40 dells. The ONLY heat issue I had was due to a faulty Chinese distributor. I'm pushing a loaded camper at 65 (easy) at a max temp of 375 and 30mpg. I have full tin AND heater boxes.
Make sure youre not answering a question no ones asking. |
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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It is very reassuring to know that some of you have the same (or near) set up as I do and have not experienced any problems (except minor related issues) with cooling their buses in areas of the world that are generally conceived to be hotter than here.
I know the system works as it is where you are (this where I generally tell you that you all live in paradise,never even have to use your wipers,it's 70deg 90% of the time and all your hills are downhill  ) and that you too have adverse conditions that your bus was just fine through.
But, have you ever been on one of those roads where there is a certain pucker factor to it? The ones where you have been running WOT up hill for 15 minutes and you are starting to watch the gauges more than the road? The ones where you are craning your neck to look around the long bend to see if this hill will ever end? The ones where the side of the road begins to be littered with cars, some with puddles under them, some still steaming and worse, burned carcasses of cars, and the long drawn sad faces of the people that you slowly pass by engine screaming for all it's worth begins to weigh on your soul?
No?
Am I giving you a small glimpse into the mad world that is in between my ears? That is why I am doing this. I am a mechanic, I deal with the worst cases every day. You know what they say, "an ounce of prevention...."
Yes you may write this off as paranoia, and it is that same paranoia that is asking what is the down side to this?
Gordo.
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Sniperx
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2010
Posts: 777
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I've taken my setup up to 15000 feet. I've done 1000 feet in 3 miles at 55mph in 90f. Look into a stretch of California road called the grapevine and cajon pass.
If you're area is so mountainous....why are you going straight axle?
Something I forgot to mention...for a guy not going efi you sure are Planning a lot of sensors.
Its all in the tune and how you drive and shift.
You said earlier that you won't drive in winter and that it will be a shiny garage queen...how many of these hells mountain tips you think you're going to visit? I'd be more concerned with altitude problems than climbing the mountains themselves.
In the end....you can do what you want. I wouldn't want road air in my engine...it gets dirty enough in there. You also sight "ricers" as having cold air intakes. Yes they do...kn also wants you to believe you get 12hp out of it.
Basically...you think you've got it all figured out. Eh...whatever...you're not interested in listening to people with the same layout as you. |
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Please, don't get me wrong, i am listening. You have made some very valid points as to there not being a problem with the way the bus is. Good to here that your bus does so well with the set up you've got. it makes me look forward to driving my bus again even more. The map sensors are cheap, I have a few in my tool box just for A/B ing.
I like the point you mentioned about road dust being picked up by the air intake. That is a problem. My bus will be a daily driver, just not in our winters, not a garage queen either, well not yet anyways.
I guess what led me to the thought, other than the original poster, was the force of air that blows through the roof vent at highway speeds. If even a quarter of that could be added to the engine bay to maintain a positive pressure. It has been shown, by others, that a bus upper engine compartment runs in a vacuous state at highway speeds. Something that the original side scoops dealt with back in the seventies.Again you may say those people all had problems with their cooling systems that they were dealing with, most likely true.
I am just thinking on a purely scientific level, would the cooling system and engine not work better remaining at atmospheric pressure or slightly higher (yes higher pressure in the engine compartment would definitely help at higher altitude too) ? So, is the theory wrong?
gordo. ps if you don't find this interesting, don't read it or post. I find it most interesting, especially the people asking why. But, I haven't done anything yet so you can still stop me, if you feel the need.
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Derek Cobb
Annoying
Joined: March 11, 2004
Posts: 2565
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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If your engine functions properly without all of that monkey business, I can't see any reason to do any of it. Your engine should function properly in a very wide range of temperatures and atmospheric pressures. If your engine is sucking in air at 1000 cfm and the cooling fan is taking in 3000 cfm, that little bilge fan is going to be like a fart in a hurricane.
Seems like you are determined to reinvent the wheel and get it mounted to your rowboat. Sorta like inventing a new mouse-trap to put in a barn full of cats. |
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Derek Cobb wrote: |
If your engine functions properly without all of that monkey business, I can't see any reason to do any of it. Your engine should function properly in a very wide range of temperatures and atmospheric pressures. If your engine is sucking in air at 1000 cfm and the cooling fan is taking in 3000 cfm, that little bilge fan is going to be like a fart in a hurricane.
Seems like you are determined to reinvent the wheel and get it mounted to your rowboat. Sorta like inventing a new mouse-trap to put in a barn full of cats. |
I like that...good analogy.
the bilge blower is for once parked engine off or for stuck in traffic. i know shouldn't be a problem.
I am still stuck on the thought that helping to reduce the vacuum in the engine compartment is a good thing.
Others have PMed me and said that they have done it and it does help...they obviously don't want to post, due to the flamage they will receive and not having enough sensors or data to please Jake Raby. Just a notable drop in oil temp and cyl head temp.
I'd like to paraphrase a quote from one of my favorite sambafites "just because everything seems OK , doesn't mean that it is. "
Gordo.
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Sniperx
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2010
Posts: 777
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. Answer these. What is your specific goal?
Lower operating temps?
Increase available combustion air? |
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Well, increase available combustion air, yes. Increase available cooling air also. Lowering operating temps , no. Cooling the air in the engine compartment and possibly the engine itself while parked, yes.
Making use of air that you are having to push down the road anyways, yes.
Here are some numbers to think about. A 3" pipe at 50mph can flow 215CFMs. Add a funnel to that 3"X18" (roughly the same size as the vent over the window) the flow increases (very rough math) to 1558CFMs. There are many variable that are not accounted for in the equation, such a an increase due to the .085psi air at 50mph has, or the decreases of .008% pressure due to friction losses.
So, this mouse trap has some teeth.
gordo.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51112
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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OK, just to stir the pot a little how about a couple of the larger aftermarket radiator cooling fans you find on eBay?, many hundreds of times more CFM than a piddly little bilge fan and easyish to mount on the insides of the louvers sucking in copious amounts of air for whatever you need to the engine compartment, just make sure the decklid latch is in good shape or you'll be blowing the lid open with that awesome cosmic cooling power 
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Sniperx
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2010
Posts: 777
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| flemcadiddlehopper wrote: |
Well, increase available combustion air, yes. Increase available cooling air also. Lowering operating temps , no. Cooling the air in the engine compartment and possibly the engine itself while parked, yes.
Making use of air that you are having to push down the road anyways, yes.
Here are some numbers to think about. A 3" pipe at 50mph can flow 215CFMs. Add a funnel to that 3"X18" (roughly the same size as the vent over the window) the flow increases (very rough math) to 1558CFMs. There are many variable that are not accounted for in the equation, such a an increase due to the .085psi air at 50mph has, or the decreases of .008% pressure due to friction losses.
So, this mouse trap has some teeth.
gordo. |
Retread your goals out loud and tell me if they make any sense to you...
At park you will get zero effect...your whole design revolves around speed and physically jamming air into a funnel.
Jc Whitney style cold air intakes are doing something your not. They put cold air right into the intake system. You're just stuffing it into the bread box and hoping it does something. These ram air systems are trying to avoid using engine bay air that Is preheated by the flow over the radiator. The acvw systems heated air is dumped under the car and out the back...well away from your intakes. Because of the amount of air exchange needed to effectively cool a motor is relatively large and the Cooling system by design has a directional flow to it the combustion air never has a chance to heat up.
Finish this thought later...off to market. |
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Very good points.
However I think you misunderstood. The existing system shares the air between combustion and cooling, I am not trying to change that. I am merely adding more air to the equation. The cooling air while parked comes from the bilge blower only.
do try to keep up, really.
gordo.
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type2man
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2005
Posts: 792
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Sniperx wrote: |
I've taken my setup up to 15000 feet. I've done 1000 feet in 3 miles at 55mph in 90f. Look into a stretch of California road called the grapevine and cajon pass.
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I bought a bus out in Cali a few years back around february out of Fresno. Ran beautifully through the grapevine withouth issues. Drove through Socal and across the U.S. back to south florida without any overheating since it was nice and cool out with temps around 50-60 degrees. Arrived in South Florida and the engine started running hot. The temperature and the humidity where you live plays a large role in how the engine is going to perform.
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eastcoast63 wrote: i'm just trying to work in some extra mash potatoes..... hell, last week i got "red head suzy" to give some collard greens on the side. Straight "zip lock bag status". Taco Bell aint got shit on "4th" meal. Late night collard greens and a biscuit. thats where its at! |
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joe cool
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2006
Posts: 1259
Location: Yolo County CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| flemcadiddlehopper wrote: |
| The cooling air while parked comes from the bilge blower only. |
Huh? |
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Sniperx
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2010
Posts: 777
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| type2man wrote: |
| Sniperx wrote: |
I've taken my setup up to 15000 feet. I've done 1000 feet in 3 miles at 55mph in 90f. Look into a stretch of California road called the grapevine and cajon pass.
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I bought a bus out in Cali a few years back around february out of Fresno. Ran beautifully through the grapevine withouth issues. Drove through Socal and across the U.S. back to south florida without any overheating since it was nice and cool out with temps around 50-60 degrees. Arrived in South Florida and the engine started running hot. The temperature and the humidity where you live plays a large role in how the engine is going to perform. |
I agree wholeheartedly. However...Canada is nothing like either of our climates.
The guy here is scatter brained. I trid to point out using his own goals and examples (kn style cold air) but I get a flip response. Whatever...waste your time and resources.
Why not hook up a turbo, but rather than piping it into the intake dump it into the engine bay and see how that works out for you. |
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I don't know why everyone thinks that Cali is sooooo hot. I've been there. I ride a sportbike too. Where I live in the summer it is to hot to where a mesh vented jacket while riding, in Cali I barely had to even open up the venting zippers. it is not that hot there. Now if you were posting from arizona where it is 45deg C for a month I would understand that it's hot there.
But people, get it straight, I am not asking you if your bus is good, I am simply asking what would the downside be? Would any adverse things happen to the cooling system or the engine because of this?
I thank you for all the input, some of the question have been on point and made sense to ask. For instance the dirt point was good and made me think a damper would be good to be able to close off the tube (would also be helpful for test data results) for dirt roads.
I am not trying to be a dick , but that must be the way it's coming across. But, a question asked should relate to the answer given.
What I,m getting is "what bad things will happen?" "I drove all the way to Wallmart with a parachute behind me and it never overheated once, what was the question?"
Ok, maybe that was kinda dickish. I hope that this is still in good fun and not taken seriously. But if you want to jump in and slag me, start by reading the thread from the beginning and you will see that the idea was spawned from a rain gutter...I am trying to take it out of the gutter.
Gordo.
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sniperx wrote: |
| flemcadiddlehopper wrote: |
Really, that's pretty much what I am running too, less the EFI , and I'm running stock R&P. Why did you put an oil cooler, oil t-stat and a fan on your bus? everyone else has no problem with cooling....you did it because it's a good idea to help, suppliment , aid the cooling...not because there was a problem. But an oil cooler is the industry standard....everyone does it, I am too. Maybe one day this cold air intake will be the industry standard...Oh wait, it is...see "ricer".
So, if you're not sure what my goal is? Mine will be cooler than yours....and isn't that what anyone is after?
Really though, I know everyone is asking why...I am just looking for the why not. What would the down side be? I did have a PM from someone who ran a air scoop supply air directly to his cooling fan, which he felt caused cavitation and had a detrimental effect on cooling. That is notable info and a reason to change plans to a distribution tube.
Keep asking question though, it helps me, really.
Gordo. |
Why? Too cold. It is possible to be too cold. If you've done some testing and demonstrated an understanding of cht and egt you'd know that under conditions I demonstrated 375 is actually low when considering over 475 is considered overheating. On the street I cruise 250-275. My cooling fan never turns on on the street...meaning it doesn't hit 180. My fan only turns on under extreme highway conditions or sitting idle for 30 minutes.
The way my system is running I can adjust air, fuel, and spark from the driver seat. I can watch my cht gauge go up, peak, and drop off as I lean it out. I can watch the cht go up as I retard Orr advance and watch them drop as I get close to optimal. I am currently running 15.5 air to fuel ratio (crazy lean) at idle with a peak cht of 250f. If I lean it out more it gets colder and loses rpm (no fuel).
It shows that tuning has more to say about temps than cooling alone. It also shows...lean under the right conditions is not bad. Look into lean of peak tuning for more info.
I have seen this motor run from 425 to 250 from a malfunctioning over retarding distributor.
The reason I went external cooling and my tstat system? 1 talked into it by builders and forums and wanted absolute reliability being my daily and adventure vehicle. The reason I went with the flow control tstat was because my oil was too cold and not cooking off the fuel and water it gathered. Too much fuel causes an acidic condition to build and etch bearings....too much water and things corrode.
My intake doesn't fight my fan or my af ratio would show it....what does happen is at speeds 50 and higher the lower pressure running down the sides is preventing the fan from having adequate air to cool the same as at low speed. Granted it well within limits but its not optimal. Unless you are running some wild rpms (hard to do with my gearing) you won't see a problem. Maybe highway combined with 5000rpm might cause a problem, but I'm only turning 3000rpm at 65mph......I couldn't imagine cranking 5000. |
Really it does sound like you've got a great bus there, and I would hope that one day mine runs as good as yours does. But, from all of your data, nothing applies to what I am trying to do. Tell me what your map sensor says at WOT 4500rpm at 50mph, and what your ambient air pressure was in the engine compartment, and what the baro was for the day. That data would be useful here.
It always helps to remember that the engine and fan do not suck the air in. The air is being pushed in by it's own weight. We all agree that carbed engines lean out at higher elevation , because the barometric pressure is lower. Why would you want to run all the time with lower pressure?
Gordo.
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Sniperx
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2010
Posts: 777
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="flemcadiddlehopper"]
| Sniperx wrote: |
Really it does sound like you've got a great bus there, and I would hope that one day mine runs as good as yours does. But, from all of your data, nothing applies to what I am trying to do. Tell me what your map sensor says at WOT 4500rpm at 50mph, and what your ambient air pressure was in the engine compartment, and what the baro was for the day. That data would be useful here.
It always helps to remember that the engine and fan do not suck the air in. The air is being pushed in by it's own weight. We all agree that carbed engines lean out at higher elevation , because the barometric pressure is lower. Why would you want to run all the time with lower pressure?
Gordo. |
WOT 4500rpm at 50mph<<<This doesn't exist. 50mph for me is under 3000rpm. WOT for me is off my tach. I never go above 3500rpm. My MAP sensor says I am at 100KPA-98KPA depending on weather and altitude (1atm IE ambient) at highway speeds. My car idles at ~70KPA due to duration. Clearly the vehicle is not fighting for cooling or burning air.
What makes you think you are running lower pressure all the time? You've got it backwards btw. As you go up in altitude your mix goes rich because the air is less dense (holds less oxygen)...not lean.
"It always helps to remember that the engine and fan do not suck the air in. The air is being pushed in by it's own weight. We all agree that carbed engines lean out at higher elevation , because the barometric pressure is lower. Why would you want to run all the time with lower pressure?"
<<<This is what I mean by scatter brained. If the air is being pushed in by its own weight...which it is...why do you need to "ram it in"? "Ram" only is effective in engine air intake. Ramming air into the engine bay will not help your mixture...it may help your cooling IF you have found the current system is inadequate.
You're welcome to do as you please...
The cons:
Dirty engine bay
Too cold to burn off water- Corrosion and galvanic problems
Too cold to burn off fuel- acidic environment in your oil
Spending resources on a problem you don't have
The (measurable) pros:
Possibly cooler bay temps resulting in cooler head temps. Using EFI you may be able to take advantage of this by running lean. However, if you understood lean of peak tuning you'd see that cooling has litle to do with how lean you can run.
BC Climate: According to wikipedia August peaks at 22c or 72f. This summer saw multiple weeks of 41c/106F here in Orange County. Little bit of a difference there. |
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flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, I don't feel insulted by being called scatter brained...it is just a process of thought, which you've been very helpful with.
Listing what you see as the pros and cons is also very helpful.
This wasn't about winning, but if you want you win.
just to clarify...BC 364,800sq miles, California 163,696sq miles.
Okanagan summer highs list as may 93deg F, June 96deg F, July 102deg F, August 97deg F Sept. 93deg F. so no igloos here.
Gordo.
There are so many depths of misunderstanding here. At least we have 1812.
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Cptn. Calzone
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2007
Posts: 1855
Location: S>E>Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: scoop |
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Keep on Gordo, it took Edison many tries but he got it correct in the end. Well worth it in my OHO. We all strive to make a better mousetrap with our busses. 
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Sambafraser
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Hel Finland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Asking the question and pushing the frontiers and using modern solutions is cool, not listening or understanding the answers that others with experience give you is stupid.
A quick recap - You are fitting a 2110cc carbed engine to your Bus? You are not the first person to do this. People could write you a shopping list of what this engine should have down to the finest detail, some off the top of their head and they could ship it anywhere in the world and it will run fine.
What I don't get is why a guy in Canada is bolting a fan to a old VW heater outlet then sticking it inside the engine or bolting roof gutters from Home Depot thinking that he has leap frogged the thinking of every VW owner or mechanic (incl VW itself) over the past 60 years?
Add to this you are a car mechanic yet you fundamentally miss some of the most basic aspects of engineering with cars?
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