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Adding modern scoop for split bus engine bay cooling / pres.
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why must everyone result to insulting people to try and get their point across?

I was not the original poster with the rain gutters. Got that part?

The goal was not to make the engine run cooler. Got that?

I asked, would not having a pressure drop in the engine compartment be better than it running in a slight vacuum (inches of water)? Got that?

I asked, is there in fact a vacuum (was the originals poster's test methods sound) in the engine compartment of a bus. stay with me.

I asked what would the down side be to reducing the vacuum in the engine compartment. That part is the crux.

I stated that all of the original engineers designs were rendered useless with all of the changes to buses these days. ie, big carbs, big cams, big heads, large displacement, higher RPMs, higher speeds, less ground clearance.

I have also stated that i do understand that many, many, many people have similar set ups with no problem. I get that. I don't have a problem.

If I wanted to know what your running and where you live and how you drive I would have asked that question. I am listening, just haven't got an answer to the question being asked.

Gordo.
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Sambafraser
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well take a look at what you are doing. You are removing the heaterboxes, they insulate the exhaust system which apart from you having a heater. It wraps the exhaust manifolds in a jacket protecting your cylinder heads from radiant heat and increasing the thermal capacity and the pulse of them to flow better - like an exhaust wrap does.
Secondly the positive pressure of a secondary fan blowing into the engine bay of your bus will simply blow out the two 30cm square louvers in the side of your bus when it is parked not the internals of your engine that are hot.
Something that you can do much better by simply driving it, a remote oil cooler away from a hot engine with its own fan will be more effective than a fan blowing into one part of an engine bay when it is parked.

In regards to your comment about the "original engineers designs were rendered useless with all of the changes to buses these days. ie, big carbs, big cams, big heads, large displacement, higher RPMs, higher speeds, less ground clearance" has me puzzled? The design envelope is still pretty much the same as it is still a type 1 motor, so larger dual carbs or EFI on a standard engine, makes it run cooler, better fuel economy + power as it breaths better. Higher speeds/rpm? Well driving flat out has always been part of the equation in Germany. What they can't help is someone cutting corners modifying the inside of an engine.
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, consice and to the point, and remained on topic. Thank you.

There have been a number of threads regarding cooling issues related to buses being lowered. Do any of these issues relate to less room for escaping hot air from the engine, or do you write all of these issues off as a tuning or cooling problem that does not relate to being lowered at all?

the bilge fan in the theory is to keep the upper engine area cool while parked. A cool down fan for the electronics mostly. of course I would plan on using the external oil cooler, but how does the fan cool the engine down if the oil is not circulating through it? Or do you also have a oil primer pump installed to circulate the oil while the fan is running and the engine is off?
Now I'm getting off topic a bit.

never mind stick to the first question. Lowerings effect on hot air flow.

Gordo.
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Derek Cobb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So do it and report back your findings! You've been prattling on about this for almost a year now. Git-er-done Boy!
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Sambafraser
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lowered bus won't be any different to a bus at stock height.
External air coolers run with a thermostat and a fan. The placement and instalation by our band of test bunnies here

Cooling electronics? What is getting hot and why? A bus engine bay has lots of space compared to other VWs of the era. So this is more to do with placement.
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, looking over the link given (relating to oil coolers and placement) it shows different placements relate to how efficient the cooler works on it's own. The fan runs lots or little. Some even noted that with the doghouse cooler an external cooler was not needed.
If I was to use this bilge fan air scoop plan solely for the external oil cooler, would that be a better purpose for the unused heater tube? Air scoop, bilge fan t-stat controlled, oil flow t-stat controlled all plumbed into the heater tube, with the exiting air being divided and forced past the j-tubes below the head.

I know many of you have oil coolers that the fan almost never comes on and that shows that it is efficient at cooling. But, would it be more efficient if air was being guided through it?

I know that some of you are tired of the subject, I am sorry, but I am trying to get the last bits and pieces in place before I send the bus to paint. I don't want to be welding, drilling or fabricating pieces on the underside after paint.

Gordo.
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Sniperx
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know many of you have oil coolers that the fan almost never comes on and that shows that it is efficient at cooling. But, would it be more efficient if air was being guided through it?

Sure it would....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


However, 1 of two things will occur. Your oil will never get hot enough to boil off contaminants or using the oil tstat hot oil will rarely reach that cooler.

Why do you want to mess with the heater tubes and whatnot? Just mount the cooler an inch off a surface and use the huge fan that comes with them. If you're trying to maintain some sort of stock feel to the thing, you've already blown it by lowering and a straight axle. An oil cooler outside the bay isn't going to detract from the bus.

My understanding of this is gone from improving performance to cooling under the extreme environment o Western Canada. With the motor size you are running I would recommend a cooler outside the bay with a fan and call it a day. If you still have problems, remove the front tin from your motor....this will give you all the high speed high flow air you could ever need. Expect to pull all kinds of junk from your bay and fan though.
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Sambafraser
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was another oil cooler and intercooler placed in an Aussie bus. This is then covered with a louvered plate.
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Sniperx
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres another piece of advice...

When my current motor goes out, I will not be doing the same thing again. I will be going with a slightly stroked Type 4 motor. I didn't know the real story behind them and regret stretching a T1 to its limits when a T4 was doing it from the factory.
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sniperx , "However, 1 of two things will occur. Your oil will never get hot enough to boil off contaminants or using the oil tstat hot oil will rarely reach that cooler. "

First off, glad I didn't lose you.

I am running t-stat and flaps and the oil t-stat by-pass and oil t-stat fan control so engine temp and oil temp should be controlled regardless of air flow over the cooler. I am going to down size the cooler and not run the typical 96 row cooler, but the 48 row. This way it can nearly be mounted upright to aid in air flow through it.

As far as my heater tube is concerned, my floors and cross members were all replaced, so the heater tube was removed. I am just looking at the space and trying to find a purpose for putting the tube back in.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If the T-stat only sends oil to the cooler in the extremes when it is needed and the fan rarely comes on at all, then I would be very happy. Mission accomplished. If all I end up doing is having the cooler mounted so it looks half as clean and tidy as the Aussie Bus, again I'll be happy.

Gordo.
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Sambafraser
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link to the restoration and customisation of the VW Kombi in the picture above is giving more detail of what they didhere
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sambafraser wrote:
The link to the restoration and customisation of the VW Kombi in the picture above is giving more detail of what they didhere



Yup,I've been all over that thread. They went way over the top with that bus. I plan on my bus falling somewhere between as found and that.

gordo.
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got a chance to do some work on the bus. I have installed the cooler mount and most of the piping for the forced air system. The space just in front of the cooler will house the bilge fan blower and the pedal pan will be fitted with an air intake scoop to collect the air.
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Gordo.
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Sniperx
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still thinking you're going up the wrong tree....

I'm running 14.3 AF ratio, 6.4x15 tires (30 inch diameter), 3.88rp, 82 4th gear, and am hitting 250 CHT on the freeway. I am also running a Porsche pulley. My oil temp at the sump (pre-coolers I believe) is 170. My motor does not run leaner on the highway due to fan speed and engine volume. My brother, an engineer, described it as this...when your available volume is so large in comparison to the draw or the flow the amount calculated is negligible. Basically consider a dam. It has a HUGE lake on the other side. The amount of pressure lost at the turbine due to the small leaks and cracks is so small its not taken into consideration. When you take the amount of air available to your motor in consideration vs the amount being used....its negligible.

My problem NOW...running too cold. I'm topping at 200 CHT on the road. I guess I could go leaner or raise the CR and get my temps back up.

On top of it all.....I'm getting over 30mpg now on a 2110 stroker.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flemcadiddlehopper wrote:

It always helps to remember that the engine and fan do not suck the air in. The air is being pushed in by it's own weight. Gordo.


Not trying to slag you or get off track here. Just need some clarification. And I have been following this thread with a resulting education. How is the engine (cooling fan AND combustion process) not an active part of the cycle? By removing air from the engine bay there is room for NEW air in the bay which is clearly moved in by pressure differential. Is it merely semantics and I am not understanding? Think
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cru62 wrote:
flemcadiddlehopper wrote:

It always helps to remember that the engine and fan do not suck the air in. The air is being pushed in by it's own weight. Gordo.


Not trying to slag you or get off track here. Just need some clarification. And I have been following this thread with a resulting education. How is the engine (cooling fan AND combustion process) not an active part of the cycle? By removing air from the engine bay there is room for NEW air in the bay which is clearly moved in by pressure differential. Is it merely semantics and I am not understanding? Think


You are on track, for air flow...more air out leaves room for more air in. It is part of the cycle of air flow. But at what pressure is the air flowing in and out? This is the question.

One of the early posters on this thread made a crude water gauge to show the effects of their scoops in the engine bay pressures. Also how these difference in pressures effected their engine temps. Now of course these were not up to snuff with the engine wizards and the data hounds were also in disbelief.

I have not given up on the idea completely, but rather would like to run some tests of my own with slightly more accurate measuring. For the time being I will stick with the forced air being pushed across and oil cooler. Besides my bus is not completed yet.

gordo.
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flemcadiddlehopper
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sniperx wrote:
Still thinking you're going up the wrong tree....

I'm running 14.3 AF ratio, 6.4x15 tires (30 inch diameter), 3.88rp, 82 4th gear, and am hitting 250 CHT on the freeway. I am also running a Porsche pulley. My oil temp at the sump (pre-coolers I believe) is 170. My motor does not run leaner on the highway due to fan speed and engine volume. My brother, an engineer, described it as this...when your available volume is so large in comparison to the draw or the flow the amount calculated is negligible. Basically consider a dam. It has a HUGE lake on the other side. The amount of pressure lost at the turbine due to the small leaks and cracks is so small its not taken into consideration. When you take the amount of air available to your motor in consideration vs the amount being used....its negligible.

My problem NOW...running too cold. I'm topping at 200 CHT on the road. I guess I could go leaner or raise the CR and get my temps back up.

On top of it all.....I'm getting over 30mpg now on a 2110 stroker.


good points,but ask your brother this.. on the dam if all the turbine generators were being used at the same time to the point where the flow out of the dam eclipsed the flow supplying the lake. Would you not want to be able to increase the supply flow? especially if it was an easy fix?

I forget does your engine not have a thermostat and flaps installed, are they working properly? I am no expert, but isn't that what thermostats are for?...Engine thermostat to control the flow of cooling air to the cylinders an heads, and the oil thermostat is to control the flow of oil to the cooler?

I don't have my engine installed and running yet, but that is kinda what I am banking on...thing to work as they were designed. Thermostats are to help engines warm up quickly and to maintain that warmth, not run too cold.

gordo.
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Sniperx
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you missed the point about my analogy here. You may be thinking you are out flowing the air available in your engine bay...but in reality...you are the crack in the damn...not the turbine....you're not going to outflow the air supply in Canada.

Yes, I have flaps and a tstat running. Yes, its adjusted...its even adjusted on the warm side. To top it all off...my Tstat is one of the custom ones rated to 80 or 85c I forget which one.

Still kind of confused as to what problem you are trying to solve......do you even have one?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always wondered when you add a big motor/big dual carbs to a bus, where does the air come from that the carbs now need?. Does it compete with the fan or is it now negative air in the engine bay? It would seem logical that you now need more air coming in.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^This thinking IS accurate IF VW designed things to only work with a 1500cc motor and a single 30pict-1. That be pretty crazy to think VW designed their margins so close.

Heres something I did in the mountains to help with warmup. I covered my air vents with a material. I tested different amount of cover, 1/4 total, 1/2 each side, 1/2 total, 3/4 total, 7/8 total, and zero. At the temperature I was at, it took 3/4 total cover to make a difference in heat, 7/8 total to make the motor a little sluggish on accel, and 100% total covered to pull gas fumes and exhaust into the heater system...ie fan was pulling 100% air from around the motor and robbing from the carbs.

In conclusion...it took a lot of coverage to start starving the motor....and this is a 2110 we're talking about here.
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