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Zed
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2005
Posts: 281
Location: Colorado
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 Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Overall, I say go German. For a mission-critical part like a ball joint, I wouldn't skimp. Door seals & whatnot, who cares. I found German ball joints (Febi) at JustKampers in the UK. I ordered "German" ball joints from OEVeeDub that turned out to have been Brazilian, so carefully source the parts. |
I actually just asked this question to the parts guy at Wolfsburg. This was his reply:
| Quote: |
We use brazilen Nakata. We have had the best luck with them. I had major problem with the german ones in that the travel in the joint we not
enough. |
Sounds like I'm going with Nakata. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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I had heard from another major supplier here on Samba that the Nakata were the most reliable these days.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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I dug through the link about sectioned ball joints from wagons west. What they are finding....is exactly what I have found in the last year in researching tie rod ends and sectioning about 8 brands.
The Moog ball joint they decribe as well as the Lemfoerder wuth the machined cap. ......are actually old school TRW design.
Moog is Federal Mogul. Many of these companies have changed hands and conglomerated over just the past few years.
I tried warning the type 3 guys about changes in tie rod ball stud and cup, design....and availability (and got nothing but worthless bullshit back)......and what is being discontinued due to manufacturing allocation......and its exactly what you are seeing in ball joints.
The original design uses a single piece cup in most cases and a two piece cup in some. The ball stud is snapped/popped into the cup....and its not some k8nd of cheap "polly" or "poly" as the wagons west article noted.....its a very specific and dificult to work nylon alloy. Tough stuff.......but the gist is that in the older design....its loaded in through the back.
The cap which is a machined plug....is pushed in to a certain level of pressure...and then the lip is swaged in under great pressure to hold that position and tension.
As long as the joint is not subjected to heavy impact that dents or cracks the nylon, heated to the flow point of the nylon alloy....and most important. ...kept greased and clean....WITH THE SAME FAMILY OF GREASE......these joints can last nearly forever. The old style TRW and Moog tke rods and ball joints up until about 10 years ago were made this exact same way.
But.....its much more expensive. Because the tolerances and tightness of the joint.....are actually set by how far the cap/plug is pushed in before the lip is swaged around the plug.....each joint is made in a fixture and turning torsion is tested while installing the plug immediately before swaging....so factually....each joint is very slightly different in finished dimension...to achieve the same spec.
This is different from other more universal tolerance joints. ...which dont use exacting press fit tolerances. ...but instead use an internal spring to take up the slack.
Some joints are made this way but loaded through the front and then swaged. The latd type 4 ball joints for 411 and 412 are made that way.
I had to search high and low for NOS TRW old school tie rod ends for my 412 because of thie manufacturing difference....and they are bad ass.
The reason why mfgs have quit making joints in this method....and I got this from Moog.....is that its nit, necessary for modern cars....which require much lighter....but very exact turning torque on the outer tie rods and on ball joints because of the power steering feeback sensors....and most of these style joints are much tighter than new cars need....and they cost more.
It doesnt help you.....but just wanted to confirm that I have found the same things wagon west did by sectioning a wide range of joints. Its also why I am working on casting better ball joint and tie rod boots. Protect what you got because its going to get harder to find. Ray |
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NOVA Bus
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2005
Posts: 517
Location: Herndon, VA
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
[
I dug through the link about sectioned ball joints from wagons west. What they are finding....is exactly what I have found in the last year in researching tie rod ends and sectioning about 8 brands.
The Moog ball joint they decribe as well as the Lemfoerder wuth the machined cap. ......are actually old school TRW design.
Moog is Federal Mogul. Many of these companies have changed hands and conglomerated over just the past few years.
I tried warning the type 3 guys about changes in tie rod ball stud and cup, design....and availability (and got nothing but worthless bullshit back)......and what is being discontinued due to manufacturing allocation......and its exactly what you are seeing in ball joints.
The original design uses a single piece cup in most cases and a two piece cup in some. The ball stud is snapped/popped into the cup....and its not some k8nd of cheap "polly" or "poly" as the wagons west article noted.....its a very specific and dificult to work nylon alloy. Tough stuff.......but the gist is that in the older design....its loaded in through the back.
The cap which is a machined plug....is pushed in to a certain level of pressure...and then the lip is swaged in under great pressure to hold that position and tension.
As long as the joint is not subjected to heavy impact that dents or cracks the nylon, heated to the flow point of the nylon alloy....and most important. ...kept greased and clean....WITH THE SAME FAMILY OF GREASE......these joints can last nearly forever. The old style TRW and Moog tke rods and ball joints up until about 10 years ago were made this exact same way.
But.....its much more expensive. Because the tolerances and tightness of the joint.....are actually set by how far the cap/plug is pushed in before the lip is swaged around the plug.....each joint is made in a fixture and turning torsion is tested while installing the plug immediately before swaging....so factually....each joint is very slightly different in finished dimension...to achieve the same spec.
This is different from other more universal tolerance joints. ...which dont use exacting press fit tolerances. ...but instead use an internal spring to take up the slack.
Some joints are made this way but loaded through the front and then swaged. The latd type 4 ball joints for 411 and 412 are made that way.
I had to search high and low for NOS TRW old school tie rod ends for my 412 because of thie manufacturing difference....and they are bad ass.
The reason why mfgs have quit making joints in this method....and I got this from Moog.....is that its nit, necessary for modern cars....which require much lighter....but very exact turning torque on the outer tie rods and on ball joints because of the power steering feeback sensors....and most of these style joints are much tighter than new cars need....and they cost more.
It doesnt help you.....but just wanted to confirm that I have found the same things wagon west did by sectioning a wide range of joints. Its also why I am working on casting better ball joint and tie rod boots. Protect what you got because its going to get harder to find. Ray |
Here's an original VW ball joint out of a 70' bus. You can see the VW logo on it.
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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This is VERY interesting. If and I mean IF this ball joint is as good as the original VW ball joints installed when our VW's were new, it would be worth every bit of $50 each.
To be able to install a ball joint w/out worry's of it being too tight or lasting only a few thousand miles would be terribly refreshing..
I hope someone has tried these and reports back.
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Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
[img]
Here's an original VW ball joint out of a 70' bus. You can see the VW logo on it. |
And the plastic plugs for zerk fittings, only seen on early early bays. A great way to keep your original parts alive. Sadly, most POs ignore ripped boots so long that even the freshest grease can't save them. My zerks got me out of a bind, once, pardon the pun. After a long desert crossing with huge sandy side winds, every right turn was met with grinding and stiffness. A few pumps of grease and it was better than ever…
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Keith
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 3634
Location: Brodheadsville, PA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
This is VERY interesting. If and I mean IF this ball joint is as good as the original VW ball joints installed when our VW's were new, it would be worth every bit of $50 each.
To be able to install a ball joint w/out worry's of it being too tight or lasting only a few thousand miles would be terribly refreshing..
I hope someone has tried these and reports back. |
I'm sorry but, $50 a piece for ball joints is not expensive at all. If you pay $20 for a ball joint, don't cry when it turns out to be shit. $50 each is about normal and if they are as good as they seem to be after looking at their website then, $50 each is a steal!
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
This is VERY interesting. If and I mean IF this ball joint is as good as the original VW ball joints installed when our VW's were new, it would be worth every bit of $50 each.
To be able to install a ball joint w/out worry's of it being too tight or lasting only a few thousand miles would be terribly refreshing..
I hope someone has tried these and reports back. |
Rare parts does pretty good work with the joint itself...but look carefully at bracketing For instance...they make a ball joint for the 411/412....which the joint itself is excellent...but the surrounding mount is far too weak and bends easily. It can be fixed with a strengthening ring for about $10 and some time....but.....
That sectioned ball jjoint you have in your picture appears to be made the old TRW way...no spring...nylon alloy packing...and swaged until the turning torque is correct.
The really important thing to do is remove the boot and find out what family of grease is in it if you can. Mixing the greases over time will causes corrosion due to metal polarity differences in the grease...but more importantly....it can eat the nylon cup if you mix greases. Ray |
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Dana Champion
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 633
Location: Ventura County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure my joints are original. Is changing the boot only, worthwhile at all, if the front end sees fine, or is it a waste of time? Only the drivers side boot is torn. It's probably hard to tell from a photo. The amount of dirt and length of time the boot has been torn are also a factor. I've never worked on them, and should look through the forums, prior to this post. Sorry. I have my front wheels off right now, having just replaced the valve stems, and I'm trying to decide the next move. 
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Dana Champion wrote: |
I'm pretty sure my joints are original. Is changing the boot only, worthwhile at all, if the front end sees fine, or is it a waste of time? Only the drivers side boot is torn. It's probably hard to tell from a photo. The amount of dirt and length of time the boot has been torn are also a factor. I've never worked on them, and should look through the forums, prior to this post. Sorry. I have my front wheels off right now, having just replaced the valve stems, and I'm trying to decide the next move.
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Check the play, if they are still serviceable clean em, put new boots on em and grease em.
Tcash |
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NOVA Bus
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2005
Posts: 517
Location: Herndon, VA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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Hey folks here's the Rare Parts Inc ball joints.
Looks of decent build quality, least they are made in the USA.
You can move the spindle, so I would not say they are super tight.
The boot looks ok, some protective coating on rubber.
Took week to deliver and cost ~$180 for four.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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Let us know how the press fit interference is? Also, stop by this thread every few months to let us know how they're doing. They're the most expensive options out there right now, but they're CHEAP if the metal and boots last in the grand scheme of things.
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Kirk
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003
Posts: 5487
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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Funny, cost savings and ball joints haven't ever been in my vocabulary. I would buy the most expensive ones around if I knew they would last me for a long long time. I bought some regular old ball joints on the arms (best way to do it IMO) for my ghia, and the boots turned to shit just sitting in the shop for 6 months as I finished everything else. Yes, they literally cracked doing nothing.  Now its time to do the bus, and I want to avoid that mistake.
You get what you pay for.
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1975 Kombi
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2007
Posts: 2452
Location: Acton, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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The boot quality is an entire different discussion. lol GARBAGE. It would be nice if there was a Zerk fitting on the bottom to grease twice a year.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| Kirk wrote: |
| Funny, cost savings and ball joints haven't ever been in my vocabulary. I would buy the most expensive ones around if I knew they would last me for a long long time. |
That's what I'm saying! Usually I see $20 ball joints for our buses as the standard rate. I'd be happy to pay several times that for a better quality joint. I'm thankful we have the parts we do have, but that's also why I'm interested in seeing how these more expensive joints play out. Joints on modern cars don't have shit boot problems, or tightness issues, but they also don't cost $20. Even a budget brand joint for a Jeep is $75-$80. So if we can find a quality option in that price range, I'd be excited.
Robbie
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6982
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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Update:
4,000 miles on my Nakatas and they are holding up nicely. What little "tightness" that was there when they were first installed is long gone. The boots still look good and there is no play in the ball joints. So far I'm happy with them.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| Kirk wrote: |
| Funny, cost savings and ball joints haven't ever been in my vocabulary. I would buy the most expensive ones around if I knew they would last me for a long long time. |
That's what I'm saying! Usually I see $20 ball joints for our buses as the standard rate. I'd be happy to pay several times that for a better quality joint. I'm thankful we have the parts we do have, but that's also why I'm interested in seeing how these more expensive joints play out. Joints on modern cars don't have shit boot problems, or tightness issues, but they also don't cost $20. Even a budget brand joint for a Jeep is $75-$80. So if we can find a quality option in that price range, I'd be excited.
Robbie |
Actually.....they are having the EXACT same boot problems on aftermarket joints for modern cars.
They are not having tolerance probl3ms on ball joints and tie rod ends for modern cars.... because modern cars....meaning only from like about 1998 and on.....use totally different specs and tolerances.
The specs too many of your joints are being built to....are actually modern car specs. Its hard to make thatcwork properly in an older design that is pretty much a custom build for any of the "good" joint companies.
And then thers are companies out there whose stuff sucks no matter the design. That is also a problem for modern cars as well.
For example...I can find ball joints for any Jeep made....from between $4 and $40....a huge range of brands....or OEM for $60-75 from a dealer.....and those are some of the same brands. Its hard to know. Ray |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| Kirk wrote: |
| Funny, cost savings and ball joints haven't ever been in my vocabulary. I would buy the most expensive ones around if I knew they would last me for a long long time. |
That's what I'm saying! Usually I see $20 ball joints for our buses as the standard rate. I'd be happy to pay several times that for a better quality joint. I'm thankful we have the parts we do have, but that's also why I'm interested in seeing how these more expensive joints play out. Joints on modern cars don't have shit boot problems, or tightness issues, but they also don't cost $20. Even a budget brand joint for a Jeep is $75-$80. So if we can find a quality option in that price range, I'd be excited.
Robbie |
Actually.....they are having the EXACT same boot problems on aftermarket joints for modern cars. |
I just haven't seen this. All my friends' cars have 12-20 year-old original boots that are hanging in there. I can't imagine the crap we buy these days for our Volkswagens will last that long. I seriously hope it will, though.
Do the original boots on modern cars have different installation or molding techniques that make them last longer? Or is someone from the Mechanic Union in bed with someone from the Aftermarket Part Union? 
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