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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| Kirk wrote: |
| Funny, cost savings and ball joints haven't ever been in my vocabulary. I would buy the most expensive ones around if I knew they would last me for a long long time. |
That's what I'm saying! Usually I see $20 ball joints for our buses as the standard rate. I'd be happy to pay several times that for a better quality joint. I'm thankful we have the parts we do have, but that's also why I'm interested in seeing how these more expensive joints play out. Joints on modern cars don't have shit boot problems, or tightness issues, but they also don't cost $20. Even a budget brand joint for a Jeep is $75-$80. So if we can find a quality option in that price range, I'd be excited.
Robbie |
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I just haven't seen this. All my friends' cars have 12-20 year-old original boots that are hanging in there. I can't imagine the crap we buy these days for our Volkswagens will last that long. I seriously hope it will, though.
Do the original boots on modern cars have different installation or molding techniques that make them last longer? Or is someone from the Mechanic Union in bed with someone from the Aftermarket Part Union?  |
Ah you hit it on the button with the last part of your respponse!...then your buddies have the original joints from the FACTORY installation. 
After speaking with several manufacturers over the past 1.5 years....what they confirmed was my suspicion that car manufacturers order specific quality level, large lots of joints and boots for original construction.
They are NOT going to put substandard parts on cars that will fail during the warranty period. They pay top dollar...but cheap costs... for trainload quantities of specific highest quality for production runs. Most go into production vehicles, some enter the pipeline for initial dealer repairs.
The same joint part #'s...are made by the same manufacturers...for the aftermarket. they meet the same basic specifications...but are not likely to be ordered by the train car load...so the margins are tighter...especially in the aftermarket. Corners may be cut in materials.
The rubber products on virtually all new cars for boots of any kind are most assuredly higher than the aftermarket replacement parts. For some time...you may get top quality factory level parts from the dealers....and for dealer prices.
As soon as the dealer parts supply is exhausted of original top quality parts...or you get close to or surpass the 10 year mark for parts unique to a certain vehicle....the dealers are at the mercy of aftermarket quality as well unless they move enough of a type of part to make it worth the while of the company to demand better quality on production runs.
Brake pads are an example of where the dealers can still demand enough volume of a part to offer OEM quality.
Rotors are next in line...but I even see some Ford and GM dealers offering Centric brand over the parts counter for late 90s and early 2000 vehicles...not bad...but not original quality.
I just inspected the undercarriage on my 2012 Golf. At 82K miles the original pads front and back still have 3/8". The rubber boots everywhere are just awesome...and I live in the salt belt.
I have also looked at some dealer replacement parts vs some good quality over the counter parts for mk 6 Golf....and...the aftermarkets made by the same companies...are NOT the same rubber quality. Ray |
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Ah you hit it on the button with the last part of your respponse!...then your buddies have the original joints from the FACTORY installation.
...
I just inspected the undercarriage on my 2012 Golf. At 82K miles the original pads front and back still have 3/8". The rubber boots everywhere are just awesome...and I live in the salt belt.
I have also looked at some dealer replacement parts vs some good quality over the counter parts for mk 6 Golf....and...the aftermarkets made by the same companies...are NOT the same rubber quality. Ray |
That really goes for the rubber boots for the CV's, also. I've always pulled the axles, cleaned and greased CV's and put on new Loebro boots, but some recent failures have made me hesitate to change those unbroken ones. NEW may not be BETTER.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Joey
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Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 5366
Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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Why are tie rod bots, ball joint boots, CV joint boots etc not made of silicone?
The cheap ass yellow EMPI silicone split boots that are on my '56 bug are well over 10 years old look brand new and don't leak a drop of oil. The so called top of the line German OE rubber ones on my '65 bug are two years old and are already starting to crack and leak.
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Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| Joey wrote: |
Why are tie rod bots, ball joint boots, CV joint boots etc not made of silicone?
The cheap ass yellow EMPI silicone split boots that are on my '56 bug are well over 10 years old look brand new and don't leak a drop of oil. The so called top of the line German OE rubber ones on my '65 bug are two years old and are already starting to crack and leak. |
I have been working on silicone boots for my ball joints and tie rod ends all this past year. Making good progress. In general low pressure gravity/vacuum casting...getting "high performance" silicone to make precise boot castings like tie rod end, ball joints and CV joints is difficult.
By high performance I mean grease and oil proof to all the right greases and oils and high temperature (temperature only important possibly on CV boots).
That means that production ones in reality are injection molded or at least pressure cast (different animal and different silicone).
Good silicone's that have less problems in these areas are more expensive than rubber.
Also...because they will usually be pourable platinum or tin catalyzed silicone's....there will be a lot more waste in large production because there will be a portion of the production that has its catalyzing process "poisoned" by mold release.....its just a bit more complicated than injection molding of rubber for large production runs. Its probably the only reasons why they dont mold boots in silicone for factory level boots.
They would easily be 3-4 times more expensive than rubber boots. In our eyes...thats still pretty cheap, But in factory terms...that adds a couple $ to each ball joint..maybe $3-5 more for each CV boot.
Multiply that times millions plus the added waste and its cost they wont pay for benefits that wont help them inside of the average car warranty period. It helps US as car owners by lasting longer than 2-3 years...but that is not their business really.
Silicone is the way to go. I hope to have silicone CV boots by spring...of a much better design than the basic stock boots....which have so much wasted materiial....the corrugations and ribs are worthless really on CV's...and allow grease to back out and fill that big worthless void.
Some power take-off U-joint mfgs hve made boots with designs that point a better way. Ray |
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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| NOVA Bus wrote: |
Hey folks here's the Rare Parts Inc ball joints.
Looks of decent build quality, least they are made in the USA.
You can move the spindle, so I would not say they are super tight.
The boot looks ok, some protective coating on rubber.
Took week to deliver and cost ~$180 for four. |
Alright I'm very excited to see these parts, the cap looks stamped and I'm not holding my breath. I contacted Glen @ Rare Parts Inc and this is not a ball joint made by them, it is made by McQuay-Norris AKA Moog AKA Federal-Mogul. He is trying to locate an exploded view or drawing for me of the design, if it looks good, I might buy one to dissect but I've got a feeling there is plastic inside of it.
Edit: I just spoke to McQuay-Norris. They said the design and blueprint is proprietary and they cannot send it to me. They said the cap is steel however the blueprints are in a different language and he couldn't tell me anything else other than the word "extruded" appears. He couldn't tell me if there was any plastic in it. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
| NOVA Bus wrote: |
Hey folks here's the Rare Parts Inc ball joints.
Looks of decent build quality, least they are made in the USA.
You can move the spindle, so I would not say they are super tight.
The boot looks ok, some protective coating on rubber.
Took week to deliver and cost ~$180 for four. |
Alright I'm very excited to see these parts, the cap looks stamped and I'm not holding my breath. I contacted Glen @ Rare Parts Inc and this is not a ball joint made by them, it is made by McQuay-Norris AKA Moog AKA Federal-Mogul. He is trying to locate an exploded view or drawing for me of the design, if it looks good, I might buy one to dissect but I've got a feeling there is plastic inside of it.
Edit: I just spoke to McQuay-Norris. They said the design and blueprint is proprietary and they cannot send it to me. They said the cap is steel however the blueprints are in a different language and he couldn't tell me anything else other than the word "extruded" appears. He couldn't tell me if there was any plastic in it. |
Of course there is plastic in it. There SHOULD be plastic in it.
What matters is what kind of plastic is in it...nylon alloy, UHMW etc. (and which alloy) ...whether its a one piece or two piece cup, how it is tensioned (spring tension, or compression loaded from cap and bearing lip swageing)....
If you have no plastic....you have hardened metal ball stud running against either softer metal (which equals denting and wear)....or you have to make both the parts hardened...which can snap easily.
Proper plastic alloys can handle tens of thousands of pounds of compression and shock load, are oil and grease proof and have virtually "0" friction where they contact the ball stud.
The crappier parts are those that use "sintered" metal contact rings and cups against the ball stud in place of plastic. The sintered metal is easily corroded if grease types are mixed. they also get dented creating tolerance...when shock load are encountered.
Ray |
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wcfvw69 
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Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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To Ray's point, here's the original VW stamped ball joint out of my 70' bus with the plastic or whatever sleeve still on the ball.[/img]
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Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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Excuse the mistake, I was basing it off of Wagenswest's BJ comparison page. It appeared the good BJ was lacking plastic and the ball itself was in direct contact with the machined cap. I can see now there is plastic around the lower portion of the ball, but the ball is still in direct contact with the machined cap.
http://www.wagenswest.com/how_to/bus_vanagon_ball_comparison.php |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
Excuse the mistake, I was basing it off of Wagenswest's BJ comparison page. It appeared the good BJ was lacking plastic and the ball itself was in direct contact with the machined cap. I can see now there is plastic around the lower portion of the ball, but the ball is still in direct contact with the machined cap.
http://www.wagenswest.com/how_to/bus_vanagon_ball_comparison.php |
Just looked at the that link again. Its easy to make that mistake. The photographs....excellent that they are....are over lighted a little and there is no contrast between the parts in the cross section. There is plastic packing/bearing material in all of those parts. Some are better designs than others.
I would have used a Sharpie to color the plastic or metal different colors for the pictures. Ray |
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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints |
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From Rare Parts...
"Corey,
I apologize for the delay in forwarding you some information on the RP10186 Ball Joint. I have checked our records and I unfortunately do not have any internal specifications to supply you. I know you were more concerned about the internal components of the ball joint itself. Looking at an image of the ball joint, it is a sealed unit which means it has nylon internals around the steel ball stud.
You would need to contact McQuay Norris for any internal dimensions you may be looking for #FA1056.
Thank you,
Glen Knowles" |
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Tcash
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Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: McQuay Norris FA1056 Ball Joints |
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A couple of things up front...from other posts.
McQuay Norris,.... is NOT Moog...is not Federal Mogul.
Moog IS part of Federal Mogul.
McQuay Norris is part of Affinia group...so is Nakata and WIX and Raybestos. http://www.affiniagroup.com/
Affinia has had McQuay-Noorris since a while before 2004 when Affinia acquired Dana corporation (AAG).....and alreaddy had McQuay Norris, raybestos, Spicer and Aimco under their roof.
I mention this because its important to try to keep some of these who's-who details right because automotive parts DIVISIONS...even more than entire companies.....change hands faster than crack outside of a Grayhound bus station.
If the parts you are looking at are NOS...when they were made by a particular company can affect what technology you find inside. In times past...the name on the box said a lot about what technology/design was inside.
In later years and recently...it can say less...or even more. If a certain brand (take TRW for instance)...has been traded around....you may find TRW technology inside....and its new parent companies technology....or maybe just the new parent company technology.
For intance....Federal Mogul acquired the rest of TRW this past July. Not the whole company....just their powertrain parts section...and they already owned a lot of the chassis parts division.
But...TRW as a whole ...for OEM parts is part of ZF corporation....as well as Sachs and Lemfoerder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_Friedrichshafen
In the past....Sections ...if not the whole of TRW...have been part of or owned by: Cofap, Kelsey Hayes and others.
Depending on WHAT kind of part the product is.....it may say TRW and be made by a totally different company.
So...bluntly put...as I have been noting for a while... TRW joint technology has been absorbed into Federal Mogul....and vica versa.
New TRW branded ball joints that I can find no longer have the older TRW technology...but are using Federal mogul ball cup and stud technology.
Now...to my point:
Ah!...yes Tcash.....the technology in the Mcquay Norris link is an updated version of the older TRW design.
This technology when TRW used it.....had a forged case with open back....and a 1 piece cup that snapped around the FULL ball. It did not need a spring because the back cap was pushed in to compress the cup and ball exactly. Then the back cap was permanently swaged in to hold it all in place.
The Mcquay Norris version of that...probably just different enough to get around the patents...uses the TRW version...but uses a wedge ring at the back....and you will find that the ball cup is split like a flower...that the wedge ring pushes down around it like a collet.
The wedge ring is pushed inward by the back cap during swaging..sliding over the split ball cup and tightening it up as it slides down. Its kind of self adjusting. And since the nylon swage ring never comes in contact with the ball it should never wear out and therefore never cause pressure to to be released from the ball cup until the wear is serious....and at that point...just get a new joint.
In this way...it has the same effect as the TRW method...without as much need for precision during manufacturing (which means its cheaper...which was the issue with the TRW joints...expensive to make).
I dont like the crimped on boot they show. It means likely you can never replace the boot if needed. That is an OEM style joint. Ray |
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1967250s
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Tcash
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Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: Oversize Ball Joint |
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Oversize Ball Joints
The Bentley mentions that Ball Joints where available in two sizes. With the notation that oversize Ball joints must be installed in torsion arms with oversize holes. With no specifications of what a standard size or oversize hole is.
211 405 371 A Ball joint 48.3 mm (1.901") Knurling dia.
211 405 373 Ball joint 48.6 mm (1.913") Knurling dia.
1. Does anyone have a Specification for what the Standard or Oversize Ball Joint Hole is in the Torsion Arm?
2. Does anyone have a Specification for the Interference Fit (press fit) between the Ball Joint and the Torsion arm hole?
Thank you
Tcash |
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SGKent
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Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Oversize Ball Joint |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Oversize Ball Joints
The Bentley mentions that Ball Joints where available in two sizes. With the notation that oversize Ball joints must be installed in torsion arms with oversize holes. With no specifications of what a standard size or oversize hole is.
211 405 371 A Ball joint 48.3 mm (1.901") Knurling dia.
211 405 373 Ball joint 48.6 mm (1.913") Knurling dia.
1. Does anyone have a Specification for what the Standard or Oversize Ball Joint Hole is in the Torsion Arm?
2. Does anyone have a Specification for the Interference Fit (press fit) between the Ball Joint and the Torsion arm hole?
Thank you
Tcash |
I believe it is the size of the opening based on measurements I took off a set of oversize ball joints I recently sold. The 48.3 mm and 48.6 mm is the size of the opening for the ball joint. If you look at a factory ball joint it has lots of ridges that flatten out when pressed in, making a crush fit. I recently sold the oversize ball joints but as I recall it seemed that if the opening was honed out to the size in Bentley (48.6 mm ?) it would have been about the right crush. The factory added staking to make sure they were tight. Some I had replaced in the 80's the shop, who did not stake them, did a mid / tig spot weld at several spots to be sure they would not come out.
Please see https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=345461&highlight=oversize+ball+joints
.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints FAQ |
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That is odd.
It make sense that only the Knurling is 0.3mm larger. But I would expect that the knurlings would measure 48.3 mm and 48.6 mm respectively?
What does not make sense is? That they would list the Torsion arm bore specs with the ball joints. Without making reference to that fact. (ie: fits 48.3mm bore)
211 405 371 A Ball joint 48.3 mm (1.901") Knurling dia.
211 405 373 Ball joint 48.6 mm (1.913") Knurling dia.
#9
There are no specs listed for the Torsion arms.
#1-#3
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/4-007.jpg
More questions than answers?
Thank you
Tcash
211 405 373
https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.de/en/traggelenk-vw-t2.html |
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popuppopdog
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Joined: April 19, 2017
Posts: 80
Location: Oakhurst, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints FAQ |
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Very interesting information and a little mind boggling, thanks to all who have put time and suffering into learning on this subject. This is my first repair project I have picked on a 1977 westy and I thought I was ready to purchase the ball joints, but have reservations, here is my thoughts, The Nakata ball joints seem too cheaply priced at $13 bucks, doesn't make sense to me, I have found Lemforder ball joints for $25, couldn't find Febi Bil Steins anywhere as a comparison, interested in the Rare parts ball joints for $ 45, what is the real answer here at the end of the day, and I know its difficult to get a consensus on this forum but I am hoping,
Just want to get started
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wcfvw69
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Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints FAQ |
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| popuppopdog wrote: |
Just want to get started
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Did you measure your ball joints play? Many original VW ball joints are still in spec and don't need to be replaced. If the boots are torn, you can buy just boots.
I bought the Nakata's and they were and have been fine. When I looked at the German brand ball joints, everyone was reported to be too tight and will cause binding in turns and failure for the steering to return to center.
Bench check your new ball joints if you need new ones. Hold them in a vise. Put the nut on the ball joint stud. Get a wrench and put it on the nut. Turn the stud in the ball joint body. It should not take a ton of effort to do this. I've seen new ball joints that I could barely spin the stud. They were bad out of the box.
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Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
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**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
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popuppopdog
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Joined: April 19, 2017
Posts: 80
Location: Oakhurst, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ball Joints FAQ |
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Sorry forgot one thing, from my reading, peening the ball joint could cause problems, two recommends, locktite 680 or, a tack weld to hold in place...answers just need all the answers
Thanks |
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wcfvw69
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Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Ball Joints FAQ |
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| popuppopdog wrote: |
Sorry forgot one thing, from my reading, peening the ball joint could cause problems, two recommends, locktite 680 or, a tack weld to hold in place...answers just need all the answers
Thanks |
I personally didn't peen or tack weld my newly installed ball joints. When you press them into the arms, you'll understand how tightly that are pressed in there.
I'm not sure why VW felt peening was needed. Is it a bad thing to peen them in? Not at all.
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Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours**
Last edited by wcfvw69 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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