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hiram6 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2006 Posts: 1880 Location: Beautiful South
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: Heat cause relay failure? |
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Is heat a common cause or contributing factor for relay failure? My Westy died while sitting in Atlanta rush hour traffic yesterday, and I'm curious as to why it choose that moment (rush hour) and place (one of the busiest interstates in the area) to leave me sitting on the side of the road.
Unfortunately, this meant a flatbed tow home, since I wasn't in a place where I could safely do any kind of diagnosis or repair. So, once I got it home last night, I determined my fuel pump had stopped working.
(1) test light showed no 12V at pump
(2) quick test with a spare motorcycle battery showed the pump itself was fine
(3) swapped out the two fuel pump relays with spares, and it fired right up.
So, one of the two fuel pump relays failed while sitting in traffic on a hot as heck day. Is heat a contributing factor? If so, the why are these relays located in the engine compartment? Wouldn't it make sense to put them somewhere else. like maybe under the bench seat inside the van? _________________ 1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning. |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10075 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: |
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C'mon, you know heat is always a major factor. Old stuff (and even some new stuff ) is going to fail sometime; it'll probably do it when it gets hot. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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Dogpilot Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2005 Posts: 4205 Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Its not just the relay getting hot. I would also suspect the pump. It may be drawing a bit more current that it should. The relay is only rated for 20-30 amps (can't remember the exact number for a 53). As your pump ages it get less efficient, kind of like all the other electrics in the van. the Bosch pump uses fuel to cool itself. So if you are in the heat, which I understand is like 98° at the moment, and have hot fuel, old pump. You have a situation where the whole system is at its least efficient. Relay went first.
Now that you have a new relay in place, feel it after about 10 minutes of running, see if it is hot. Or, if you have the technology, measure the current. Unfortunately, most meters only go up to 10 amps.
BTW, I'll be in Carrollton next week, then its off to Oklahoma for an NTSB engine teardown, with a day or two trying some new trails. Home for a few days and then to Borneo for two weeks. Got to get that Twin Otter out of the jungle. Lifting it out with a CH-54. I'll have to post a pic of this. _________________ Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G
Last edited by Dogpilot on Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hiram6 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2006 Posts: 1880 Location: Beautiful South
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Okay, I kinda suspected as much. The heat, along with an old pump, did me in.
My shameface is because I know I'm partially responsible for the failure. I still have cavitation whining at my pump, so for many months my pump has been straining and working harder than it should. AND, at the same time, I suspect the cavitated (new word?) fuel has not been cooling the pump as well as it should.
I really need to plumb the return line across into a tee between the tank and the pump. Looks like I need to buy some fuel line and a barbed tee. I have some of the correct fuel line clamps left over from a previous project.
Oh joy, I'll smell like gasoline for the rest of the day. _________________ 1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning. |
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tschroeder0 Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008 Posts: 2096 Location: Boulder CO
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: |
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on the subject of cavitation (ie noisy pump) I have never had to add an extra line to any van I have ever had or worked on, when the pump has benn noisy it has almost always been a filter that is getting plugged or in one case a piece of junk in my tank occluding the outlet at times. I guess what I'm questioning is why you would have to add anything to such a simple pumping system, it seems overcomplicated? Just my thoughts, Todd |
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hiram6 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2006 Posts: 1880 Location: Beautiful South
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:02 am Post subject: |
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tschroeder0 wrote: |
on the subject of cavitation (ie noisy pump) I have never had to add an extra line to any van I have ever had or worked on, when the pump has benn noisy it has almost always been a filter that is getting plugged or in one case a piece of junk in my tank occluding the outlet at times. I guess what I'm questioning is why you would have to add anything to such a simple pumping system, it seems overcomplicated? Just my thoughts, Todd |
Todd, there are many other threads about this topic, so I won't bore everyone with repeating all of it, but my cavitation issue comes from having one of the replacement fuel tanks with the too small metal fuel supply line. The fuel pump wants more fuel than the diameter of the supply line can provide, thus cavitation. Bus Depot now supplies a fuel tank with the correct size, but others have had success routing the return line over and teeing it in, so I'll give that a shot before doing the fuel tank exchango danceathon.
Definitely not my filters, and not crud in my tank, it's the supply line that's my culprit. _________________ 1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning. |
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tschroeder0 Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008 Posts: 2096 Location: Boulder CO
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Hey, thanks that explains a lot, good new info (for me) Good luck! |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10367 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Heat cause relay failure? |
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hiram6 wrote: |
Is heat a common cause or contributing factor for relay failure? ........
So, one of the two fuel pump relays failed while sitting in traffic on a hot as heck day. Is heat a contributing factor? If so, the why are these relays located in the engine compartment? Wouldn't it make sense to put them somewhere else. like maybe under the bench seat inside the van? |
In doing my swap, I originally had the relays close to the exhaust. Bottom of box got HOT!. It "ran", but because it got hot, it really picked my a$$. I went to the trouble of moving them/harness around to other side.
I would think that for the stock WBX setup, VW would have them located were no harm would come to them due to heat. (all things being equal) Age? Well, much like humans, as they get older, they might not be so fond of the heat.
Sure wish I had their resources. My team of engineers really dropped the ball on determining the original relay box location!
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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GrindGarage Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 710 Location: Ocean City, NJ
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I thought old people like the heat thats why they move to Florida. _________________ -cliff
91 Vanagon AUTO
97 Single Port EJ22 all smallcar.com |
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anthonywesty Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2007 Posts: 107 Location: Sunshine State
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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A few years ago my vanagon 84' with the engine cold start fine but in a long trips and the engine hot ,when I turn off the engine and tried to start again don't start up and waiting 15 min. and the engine start up without problems. I replaced the fuel pump relay and today the van start fine and no more start up problems. _________________ 82' Westfalia 2.0 16V with Digifant.
86' Vanagon GL
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd147/WestyBOYPR/westfaliaCY.jpg |
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