Is my distributor flipped or am I?

[whafalia]

I'll try to start with some pictures,

You can just skip to the last line for my question.

So The 84 1.9 was doing fine then had some episodes of power loss with difficult restart or no restart. It would seem to respond to various things, first time I changed the fuel filter and it seemed happy, another time cleaning the rotor contacts seemed to be the ticket, broke on honey out of town and helpers there did stuff, the thing they thought that helped was cleaning the sensor in the AFM.

So I'm trying to get it ready to head out, I've checked fuel volume and pressure and injector pattern, all good. Did the Bentley checks at the ecu connector all spec except injector resistance read 20 ohms, spec is 16, don't think that's an issue. At this point it will sometimes start but not usually hold idle and maybe I can rev it up if I am very careful with the throttle but more likely it will die. Timing showed a little wandering around the stock mark and advance was pretty much still on the advanced timing mark. Vacuum seems low, about 9 though sometimes it would start to run better and vacuum would pick up. Oh, lots of effort tightening the vacuum stuff, like my zip ties? The rotor contacts seem to pick up carbon tracking pretty quick. New coil and new cap and rotor again while I was at it. Cleaned and redid the grounds pretty fastidiously for me, new strap 6gauge high quality wire. At this point it did fire up and sound good but not again.

My neighbor with an 85 walked by and I was able to borrow his ecu, no change but while there I noticed his wires were coming off the dizzy about 90 degrees clockwise of mine and I noted this on some other web pics also. So I started messing with timing and could get little starts out of it but no strong running. Then I learned of the tdc mark and ways that it can be off from bensplace. You can see it in red at about 3:30 in the pic above and it wasn't oriented with the #1 wire nor did it line up with the rotor when the timing mark was brought up to center. I have now messed with various permutations of where does the #1 wire go then 1432 and jiggled the timing this way and that ( my great duh was realizing that I didn't have to get out of the van and walk around to the back every time I wanted to shift a few degrees, that took a while).

So my main question for now is is my distributor right?

[Wildthings]

Were the pictures taken before you started messing with the wires? It looks to me like you are at TDC for #3 and not #1. If you haven't moved anything before the pictures were taken then rotate the crank one full revolution, to get it to TDC for #1. If you have moved things around you will need to verify that you are actually at TDC for #1. I like removing all the plugs except #1 and turning the engine until you feel the compression building up. This will only occur on either side of TDC for #1.

Once you are 100% certain you are on #1 remove the distributor and then follow the instructions in the Bentley for aligning the distributor drive. You can raise the drive by just removing the little spring and then jamming a piece of dowel rod (5/16" I think) into the center of the drive. Don't raise the drive any more than needed to make it turn or the washers may fall off the bottom. Turn it to the position shown in the Bentley and then reinstall the spring and distributor. Making sure the cog on the bottom of the dizzy shaft is engaged in the slot in the drive, rotate the dizzy body until the rotor lines up with the mark on the lip and you are ready to install the wires in their new positions. #1 will be where the rotor is pointing, the firing order is 1,4,3,2 clockwise. Start the engine and time it as per instructions in the manual.

Confusing but not impossible to do.

[whafalia]

Those were two of the most beautiful paragraphs I've seen, you wasted not a word. Perfect.

[Emeritusx]

Do yourself a little favor, melt or round off the zip tie ends where you trimmed them. I have been cut by more of those than I care to mention. They are very sharp.

Looks good though..
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82 Westy ☢, 66 Splitty ☮, 73 Type 181 ✠

[whafalia]

Well the drive shaft was off 90 degrees and it did start and sound pretty good, I got it timed to full advance but once it got warm it became stubborn on restarting. It will catch a bit but die with any throttle or just when I get back to the engine. I unplugged tempII and it started once, sounded pretty good, died when plugged back in. Wouldn't restart sensor or no. Resistance of tempII looked about right for the chart. Jiggling wires and connectors hasn't given any magic. Dang, I thought I was gonna be good when I saw the distributor was off. At this point I would be happy if I could just limp the thing to Rolf over at City Auto. I think I'm approaching my AAA limits. I did the bentley checks for the Hall unit but broke for lunch before finishing the Hall generator checks in the distributor and motivation is taking a beating.
A slightly shaved pencil worked for pulling the drive shaft.

[whafalia]

Some closure-the sweeper in the afm box was jammed. Some previously helpful folks glued the top down and swore they didn't touch anything in there and I didn't look. Loosened the clamp and lifted the apparatus up and viola. Course a cv joint went out on the shakedown, wee. I hope, like our chihuahua, this van learns that it is worthwhile to develop mutual trust.

ps-my fault on the cv, when we got it it was clunky, I relubed and flipped them but didn't use loctite. Found them loose in the midst of all this chasing and they threw their lube. Had an interesting problem with the tdc sensor too. I think I could have built a nice subaru harness in the time spent in this last round.

[Dwighia]

Very much appreciate Wildthings comments regarding the orientation of the distributor. I too have an '84 1.9 with the cog reversed inside the distributor. Because the vacuum can only fits one way, I had to change my wires similar to Wafalia's original post. Unfortunately, this means it is very difficult reaching the spark plugs on cylinders #1 and #2. It is extremely tight. Pix shows the jumble of wires.

My question is: Is changing the wires really necessary? Since there is no retardation on Plug #3 like in air cooled VWs, seems like the #1 position and the #3 position on the distributor should be interchangeable. They should be 180 degrees apart, so why can't I just use the original configuration? (as shown in my pix).
Thanks in advance for your help.
Dwight

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'71 Ghia Sedan
'68 Ghia Convertible
'84 Vanagon
If you dismantle a VW engine and reassemble it enough times, will you end up with enough extra parts for another engine?

[sanchius]

Try this: Guide: Procedure to safely re-orient your WBX distributor
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[Dwighia]

Sanchius,
Thank you for your reply and link.
My issue is not the orientation of the distributor INSIDE the engine. My engine is stock.

My distributor simply has the cog reversed 180d at the bottom end of the distributor. I believe I just need to disassemble the distributor and reorient the cog.

I can't seem to find a description on how to do this.
Thanks again for your help.
Dwight
_________________
'71 Ghia Sedan
'68 Ghia Convertible
'84 Vanagon
If you dismantle a VW engine and reassemble it enough times, will you end up with enough extra parts for another engine?

[Abscate]

As long as the can has clearance and the wires reach you can run the distributor in the wrong position but it’s bad practice. Eventually someone will come in and move your plug wires to the “ right “ places and give you a headache.

Perhaps dont run out and fix tomorrow, but make a note fir your next piintscap rotor replacement coming up in < 12 months and fix it then
_________________
.ssS!

[?Waldo?]

[Dwighia]

Thanks ?Waldo? and Abscate.
Yes, I intend to fix the distributor cog. But if you have any advice on doing this or links, that would be muchly appreciated.

My engine is very stock, so nobody has messed with the internal distributor drive to make it weird.

I bought a used distributor off ebay and it came with the cog 180d different from my original distributor. I wish I had taken pictures.

So I'm going to take apart my distributor and reorient the cog ASAP. The current configuration works but the spark plug wires are stretched to the max.
Not to mention the embarrassing wire configuration at the distributor.....

_________________
'71 Ghia Sedan
'68 Ghia Convertible
'84 Vanagon
If you dismantle a VW engine and reassemble it enough times, will you end up with enough extra parts for another engine?

[Bradgt74]

Do you have a bench vise? If so, clamp the cog in the vise (just the skinny flat part). Then it should be ridged enough to tap the pin out with a punch. If you use a vise, make sure the jaws are smooth, or place some metal between the vise and the cog. Once the pin is out, rotate the distributor 180 deg and tap the pin back in.
_________________
1970 Westfalia http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=379526&highlight=1970+westy
1968 Beetle http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579992&highlight=
1987 Westfalia https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762500

[Dwighia]

Thanks Bradgt74,
Will do and report back here when finished.
Looking forward to a normal wire configuration.
Dwight
_________________
'71 Ghia Sedan
'68 Ghia Convertible
'84 Vanagon
If you dismantle a VW engine and reassemble it enough times, will you end up with enough extra parts for another engine?

[Glenn]

[heimlich]

It's real easy to take the drive dog off those. Just don't wack the distributor as it can sometime cause springs to pop off internally. Just shake it before hand and afterwards to see if you hear any differences.

Pull the spring from the bottom. Put the drive in the vice. Pop the pin in the dog with a pin punch and hammer. Turn 180 degrees. Push pin back in. Put spring back on.
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[Dwighia]

Many thanks to those who helped guide me through the treacherous waters of distributor cog reversal. Heimlich, Glenn, and Bradgt74 were especially helpful in describing the process.

(shameless plug/shout-out to Glenn who sold me a correct-for-my-carb distributor for my '68 Ghia that made a vast improvement in the engine performance)

Here's some pix of the process:

Spark plug wires jammed and twisted into distributor cap because the dizzy cog was off by 180degrees. Arggg.

Graphic of my wiring mess.

Before pix of cog

Driving pin out (actually back in) using vice and punch

Final product

Now a happy camper

_________________
'71 Ghia Sedan
'68 Ghia Convertible
'84 Vanagon
If you dismantle a VW engine and reassemble it enough times, will you end up with enough extra parts for another engine?

[Bradgt74]

Your distributor is right with the world again!
_________________
1970 Westfalia http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=379526&highlight=1970+westy
1968 Beetle http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579992&highlight=
1987 Westfalia https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762500

[Abscate]

You have helped your distributor actualise its’ orientation of choice.
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.ssS!

[djkeev]