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D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning
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Gus Paul
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a 64 notch and i was wondering what the original wheel bolt pattern is for them?
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5X205 'Wide 5' through '65. 4X130 starts in '66.
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ddare
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

I wasn't exactly sure which thread to put this in, but I recall a few discussions about there being a spacer that can be added underneath the temperature sensor on the cylinder head that can help sort out some issues related to rough running during warm up.

I found that spacer available on this 914 parts site, although one could probably fashion their own:

http://914ltd.com/store.php?c=1384303079
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

gonna be a little bit of a tease here...

but I'm working on wrapping up a project a few years in the making... but first...

parts porn. Behold! 3D printed replica's of original T3 D-jet connectors. I've made them from a variety of plastics and carbon fiber, and I'll be doing some corrosive fluids testing and whatnot to show off how usable these are as final production parts.

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the one on the far left is original. The other 2 are 3D printed.

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new electrical tabs fit inside perfectly, can be released from the plug just like stock.

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fits like a glove.

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I made all the different sizes too....

so for my next trick! Laughing

I plan to finish up a long-time project: F-jet Connectors. Wtf is F-Jet? its a hybrid of D and L Jet connectors to become: the Franken-Connector. Hence: F-Jet.

its basically an L-jet connector modified to fit inside standard D-jet parts, so you can use the more modern and readily available pigtails and connectors with your standard parts, no mods needed.

At some point after that, I'll also try and make D-jet plug versions that have the L-jet connectors inside, for a more authentic "look" without giving up the more modern connector style, but this is harder for a variety of reasons.

that said, enjoy the pics for now and for anyone else that might want to print their own plugs or know someone who can print them for them, let me know and I can share the STL file.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

We are approaching results on the same projects from different directions Laughing

Very nice work!

I should have prototype pressure molded nylon "F-jet" plugs possibly by end of June.
I have been working on a mold since about last summer.

That being said.....I have a part # of L-jet style connector.....that will fit inside of a D-jet connector without modification. But....they are a little loose in the plug...and due to their small size...they are a little tight on the male pin.

One thing I am just sketching out now.....it may not work......is an ECU plug that uses L-Jet style connectors in place of the funky "Y" connector.

Very good work! Keep it up!

Also....drop me a line and tell me what plastics you used and I can tell you which ones will work or have issues.

Really there is no...affordable......substitute for Nylon 12 for these parts. The nylon 6.6....has a bit more temp range than 12 but has issues with shrinkage in the mold. Nylon 6....just absorbs too much moisture and cracks. This was the original yellowish nylon our plugs were made from.

Some newish materials have promise....PBT plastic.....easy to mold. Polysulfones.....Higher temp. But expensive. Ray
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cushjbc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

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These are what I have been using to rebuild D-Jet harnesses in Mercedes M116/117 applications. They can be purchased from VW / Audi parts suppliers but I just grab them at the salvage yards. Our engines use 2, 4, and 5 pole connectors. The donor cars have 3 pole connectors as well.

I look for early '90's 6 cylinder cars from Audi because the 4 and 5 pole connectors are harder to find. 2 and 3 pole connectors are a dime a dozen on A4s, Jetta, Passat etc.

The sensors that have a beveled edge (TPS, Pulse Generator or trigger points, Air Temp and Coolant Temp sensors) require a little Dremmel work but these connectors work well and use the JPT terminals that our D-Jet system should have had from the beginning.

Brad Cushman
Albuquerque
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

cushjbc wrote:
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These are what I have been using to rebuild D-Jet harnesses in Mercedes M116/117 applications. They can be purchased from VW / Audi parts suppliers but I just grab them at the salvage yards. Our engines use 2, 4, and 5 pole connectors. The donor cars have 3 pole connectors as well.

I look for early '90's 6 cylinder cars from Audi because the 4 and 5 pole connectors are harder to find. 2 and 3 pole connectors are a dime a dozen on A4s, Jetta, Passat etc.

The sensors that have a beveled edge (TPS, Pulse Generator or trigger points, Air Temp and Coolant Temp sensors) require a little Dremmel work but these connectors work well and use the JPT terminals that our D-Jet system should have had from the beginning.

Brad Cushman
Albuquerque


Thank you VERY much for this.

Years back....I took a three pin, pink plug just like that from an Audi in a pick and pull in Dallas. It has been in my trigger plate for years. Their car mix was very poor at those times for foreign. I could not find any more of the pink series like that and kind of gave up for a while when I moved to an area than had virtually no auto salvage yards that you could peruse at will (the DC area).

The one I had...had a damaged part # so I could not easily at that time find the plug body series on Tyco amp website....and AMP themselves were not all that useful at that time. Some of their personnel had no ideas of what actually uses their plugs when you talk to tech services. Saying it went into a Bosch product or a particular car....is not what they know....as zillions of products use these parts. They need to know the plug and pin series


That connector series 927771-3...Is the very small one that I got from amp to use in a repro of the original D-jet plug bodies. It is the smallest of the dual cantilever terminals.
It can have a small amount of difficulty stretching over the male terminals in D-jet as they are thicker than some of the late models...but not enough of a problem that they do not work perfectly.

I kind of put looking for these parts on the back shelf for a few years. Now they are in so many cars...as you are pointing out...they should now be easy to find.

I will be building a new harness later this year. I will make it a point to source these plugs. Ray
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cushjbc
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

Ray,

Let me know if you have difficulty - I will gladly source you for free due to the fact that your writing on this topic is what got me interested in improving D-Jet harnesses on Mercedes-Benz. I have sacks full of those connectors. VW uses just 2 and 3 pole correct?

I have rebuilt 10 harnesses for M117 D-Jet owners in the last 4 years. I am convinced Bosch and the auto manufacturers made a fortune selling injectors and sensors when the harness was the thing causing intermittent failures. I have oscilloscope data to prove this.

Incidentally, I sent an email to you a few years ago when I found these parts. I got no response so I thought you maybe didn't like Mercedes guys. For the record, I'm a D-Jet enthusiast.
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cushjbc
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

I don't want to veer too far off topic but I would like to share what I have been using to better protect D-Jet harnesses. Wirecare.com sells silicone flame retardant grade A coated fiberglass sleeving in various diameters:

https://www.wirecare.com/category/braided-sleeving...10-ft-cuts

This is the same stuff used on modern O-2 sensor leads - very good protection from heat and chemicals.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

cushjbc wrote:
I don't want to veer too far off topic but I would like to share what I have been using to better protect D-Jet harnesses. Wirecare.com sells silicone flame retardant grade A coated fiberglass sleeving in various diameters:

https://www.wirecare.com/category/braided-sleeving...10-ft-cuts

This is the same stuff used on modern O-2 sensor leads - very good protection from heat and chemicals.


Its hilarious!...in the fact that I had been using the non-silicone coated braided sleeve cover just like that a few years back....and had been slipping it onto a dowel and coating it with Ultra gray RTV....which looks like a factory applied it.

Laughing I did that because the silicone coated version I had a sample of was a bit stiff I thought. But I agree with the concept totally.


Thank you for the offer on the connector plugs! From the information you provided I can most likely find them on AMPS site without getting lost for days...but I may take you up on the offer!

The VW 411, 412 and Porsche 915 1.7L and 2.0L use:

Two pin: five of them (injectors and intake air temp sensor)

Three pin: One of them (trigger points on distributor). Some very early type 3 used a 3 pin on the TVS as well.

Four pin: Two of them (one on the MPS and one on TVS)

Five Pin: One of them (used on late model D-jet in some type 3, 411/412 and (14 in the TVS with fuel shut off)

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

These tabs were used to locate the connector in the clip latch body - they work well to define the depth in our injectors and sensors.

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VAW part 443 906 232 in an Air Temp Sensor

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VAW part 443 906 234 in a Manifold Pressure Sensor (I think you use a different term for this device on VW D-Jet)

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VAW part 443 906 235 in a pulse generator (trigger points)

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Keith Park
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

Time to pick up where I left off tuning the 2056 for the Squareback,
that was only 8 years ago but...
I have read over the sermon's of Ray when he was helping me but need
advice for a starting point of Timing, I don't remember where I had it. Ray,
you want 10BTDC at idle, I think the stock 2L GA Porsche distributor has about 0 when timed to 28 at full advance, now if I start more advanced, THAT much more advanced, wont I be running too advanced to avoid detonation at speed? I had things running rather well before but didn't get the bucking taken care of, and was still noodling with getting the D cell valve and retard hooked up properly.

Thanks

Keith
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

got the timing at 28 full mech adv now, that's around 5-10BTDC at idle, hoses off. 28FP, set main mixture to run AFR 13.5 or so, but the idle AFR is way rich, cant lean it out anymore with the ECU, its 11.5 or so, not sure how to lean out idle. I do have some roughness on decel, it gets quite rich on decel, 10's for AFR... is this normal? haven't hooked the decel valve in yet, just rough tuning so far... looks like I Need to find a way to lean up idle
and AFR on deceleration. Ideas?

KEith
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

Keith Park wrote:
got the timing at 28 full mech adv now, that's around 5-10BTDC at idle, hoses off. 28FP, set main mixture to run AFR 13.5 or so, but the idle AFR is way rich, cant lean it out anymore with the ECU, its 11.5 or so, not sure how to lean out idle. I do have some roughness on decel, it gets quite rich on decel, 10's for AFR... is this normal? haven't hooked the decel valve in yet, just rough tuning so far... looks like I Need to find a way to lean up idle
and AFR on deceleration. Ideas?

KEith


Sorry....I meant to get back to you. Its been busy. The knob on the ECU is ONLY for idle air fuel.
And....for the most part idle air fuel mixture is not important unless it is so lean that it wont start, or so lean that the MPS cannot add enough to keep from being too lean during mid rpm range part throttle acceleration.....or too lean at shift points and part throttle cruise.

Or if its so rich at idle that it causes wet ports which will cause hunting at idle or stays too rich in the first part of mid range accleration.

If being too lean at idle is the problem.....what you need to do is add to the BASELINE fuel mixture....and then adjust the idle mixture. Also reading mixtures on D-jet is problematic.....if you have a stock muffler or exhaust. Accuracy is iffy.

Understand that D-jet from the factory ....the baseline fuel mixture adjusted at the MPS.....typically runs richer at idle than it needs to to be sure that it does not run lean in the part throttle phase. It really runs richer than it needs to for best HP.

The real key to make sure of before you change anything.....is how the air fuel mixture runs when driving....and at high speed cruise at part throttle and at shift points and WOT.

Chances are if you ran out of room to adjust idle with the ECU knob.....you have issues in your baseline fuel mixture. Make sure your CHT sensor is not maxed out in the under 100 ohms range because that will make you about 10% lean. Really.....pretty much anything under 200 ohms maxes out what the CHT can give you for lean. Ideal in warm weather is down around 125- 175 ohms.

So the way to adjust this is to reset the knob on the ECU.....to dead center. I think it has about 23-24 clicks. Put it in the center so you have room to adjust lean or rich. Then carefully remove the outer full load stop plug....count the number of turns exactly.....and tweak the center amrmature screw very slightly.....outward.....maybe 1/6th to 1/8th turn while idling.

It will affect idle so adjust that as necessary. Work bsck and forth with idle and center screw of MPS just slightly to get stable idle while watching AFR. You really do not want it much higher than 11.9 to 12.0. If you adjust up to about 12.5.....this gives you a little room to adjust back down with the ECU knob.

Do not rev the engine while the outer stop screw is out. Screw that stop back in and take it for a test drive. Let us know how that works. Write down everything you do. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

Thanks Ray, your invaluable here!
My CHTS is 65 ohms hot, so I need to add some series resistance here.
Its running drivable now, still have an occasional miss under say, quarter to half throttle, tried full load stop, that didn't help, at what throttle percent does that start to kick in? full only? it hit the low 14's AFR under heavy throttle, perhaps I should richen it up a bit or see what the CHTS mod does first.

Question about my MPS now, I have 2 for this engine, one is an 049, 1.7L Porsche if I recall correctly, the other is an 037 2L that matches this control unit. I got the 037 It had a bad diaphragm, so I swapped one in from a T3 sensor, set the height of the 2 adjustments the same with a caliper, and ran with it. After further adjustment They both seem to perform the same. HOWEVER, if you take the head off, the two diaphragms are very different, one is brass, the other stainless? one has more pleats than the other and most importantly, the 037 is much stiffer if you press the armature ball than the 049. Should this be something I worry about? should I use the 049 that doesn't match the ECU instead as it has the correct diaphragm in it? Does stiffness matter?

Oh, and I drilled a hole in the middle of the outer stop so I can adjust the inner screw on the fly.

Thanks

Keith
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

Keith Park wrote:
Does stiffness matter?


Yes, always.
Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

Keith Park wrote:
Thanks Ray, your invaluable here!
My CHTS is 65 ohms hot, so I need to add some series resistance here.
Its running drivable now, still have an occasional miss under say, quarter to half throttle, tried full load stop, that didn't help, at what throttle percent does that start to kick in? full only? it hit the low 14's AFR under heavy throttle, perhaps I should richen it up a bit or see what the CHTS mod does first.

Question about my MPS now, I have 2 for this engine, one is an 049, 1.7L Porsche if I recall correctly, the other is an 037 2L that matches this control unit. I got the 037 It had a bad diaphragm, so I swapped one in from a T3 sensor, set the height of the 2 adjustments the same with a caliper, and ran with it. After further adjustment They both seem to perform the same. HOWEVER, if you take the head off, the two diaphragms are very different, one is brass, the other stainless? one has more pleats than the other and most importantly, the 037 is much stiffer if you press the armature ball than the 049. Should this be something I worry about? should I use the 049 that doesn't match the ECU instead as it has the correct diaphragm in it? Does stiffness matter?

Oh, and I drilled a hole in the middle of the outer stop so I can adjust the inner screw on the fly.

Thanks

Keith


As far as I know and I may be wrong.....the stainless diaphragm was what you got from rebuild houses. Yes.....it makes a diffdrence.

The 049 and 037.....are identical....except....that on the Porsche 2L 037.....the flat steel spacer ring that is in contact with the diaphragm.....is swapped to the opposite side of the 037 compared to all others.

The diaphragm variations....more and less pleats....makes very little difference. Swap in the copper one....make sure that the bushing that surrounds the center load armTure screw is set up to the same protrusion depth as the one you are replacing.

You noted you tried the full load stop......stop that! Wink
That is very specific adjustment. The name ful load stop is kind of a poor name. Yes.....it helps to keep the diaphragm from over entending outward at fast transition to WOT....but thats not that important and not what its prime function is.

It comes into play....primarily.....when you take off from a stop. When you crack the throttle....the diaphragm in the MPS....which is vacuumed inward while idling at the traffic light and apllying spring pressure to the main armature......moves outward....rapidly and only for a,split second..... toward the full load stop and hits it.....and then instantly drops back to its neutral position with slight load against it from the armature spring.

What its doing......is that when you crack the throttle and atmospheric pressure rushes in to contract the barometric chamber and simultaneously move the diaphragm outward.....its taking an extra small amount of spring pressure off of the load armature.....allowing it to push out of the magnetic coil MORE RAPIDLY.....and slightly farther.. than it would if you did not have a diaphragm in the MPS........but it only does this for a split second.

So it increases the RATE or speed of enrichment when you are taking off from a stop. It works effectively like the accelerator pump of a carburetor.

It also comes into play....when you are at very small throttle openings like cruising.....and you hit a shift point or open the throttle a small amount more.

Adjusting the full load stop cannot be done until you have reasonahle running and baseline fuel mixture.....which I think you are close enough.

With the engine warmed up and idle correct and stable......you turn the full load stop inward until it juuuuuust contacts the flange on the diaphragm. If you turn it inward enough to actually move the diaphragm.....the engine will usually stall.

So at stable idle....you turn it into 0 but not enough to affect idle. Then turn it out 1/2 turn to start. Either give it a quick drive or rev it lightly.....driving is better. If it has not been turned out enough.....it will stumble off the line and get a lean misfire.

If that happens....stop....let it idle stable...and turn outward another 1/8th turn. Repeat this until it accelerates off the line smoothly.

If you go to far....it will have a stumble off the line with a rich puff of black smoke.

If your main fuel mixture is way off....you will not be able yo adjust the full load stop properly. Usually....at the point you are now......you adjust the full load stop. Then drive and check....and you will usually see that a further tweak to the main cenyer adjusting screw of thr MPS is needed for midrange correction.....and then you will have to readjust idle....and then re-adjust the outer full load stop again. This is how you dial things in.

Go for drivability first! Do not just follow the AFR gauge. If you are driving and acgeoeratibg smooth as glass....and not overheating....and your afr gauge does not agree.....its typically where the gauge is plumbed into the exhaust that is the problem. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

ok, I have the spacer ring on the wrong side on the 037, interesting that difference, I wonder why? Ill correct that. Yea, im not looking as much at the actual numbers of the AFR as I am the changes and relative numbers, what is lean or richer and where. I have the sensor in the upper left hand side of the Ernst muffler.

Ill make these changes and see what happens. I think I need to tighten the advance springs in the distributor too as the idle timing is jumping around a bit.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

Keith Park wrote:
ok, I have the spacer ring on the wrong side on the 037, interesting that difference, I wonder why? Ill correct that. Yea, im not looking as much at the actual numbers of the AFR as I am the changes and relative numbers, what is lean or richer and where. I have the sensor in the upper left hand side of the Ernst muffler.

Ill make these changes and see what happens. I think I need to tighten the advance springs in the distributor too as the idle timing is jumping around a bit.


I dont know that YOU have the spacer ring on the wrong side.....I just know that the 2 are on opposite sides of the diaphragm. But if everything went back together the same ad tbey came apart.....that is the difference from the factory on those two MPS.

That upper left chamber of the Ernst.....is probably s stable place to read......but the issue is that it is can be reading off of only two cylinders there....sometimes.....depending on rpm.
Its really hard to say for sure because the gases from all four cylinders at that exact point should be getting to that chamber but it also has the dump in in the sub chamber from just one pair.

Before you tighten the distributor springs.....for the moment....even though I fully agree with that......start with examining the advance plate that the points are mounted on. Clean and polish the glide ring between the two plates.....then clean and polish the spot under the ball bearing and spring.....and then close down the gap between the little steel finger across from the ball and spring to a gap of about .003"-.004".

Reducing the points plate gap and slop.....means that any advance from the vacuum advance is more accurate and you get less oscillation at idle. Then at this point....look at the lug where the vacuum advance arm connects to the points plate. If shen vacuum advance functions.....does the arm lift and slip upward on the points plate lug ever so slightly?

If so.....bush the gaps between the plate and e-clip with thin nylon washers or plastic.

Make sure your distributor drive dog does not have excessive play betaeen dog and distributor body. Its common that it may need to be shimmed by this time.

When you get to the lower centrifugal advance area....get rid of all rust and scale and make sure the pivot point holes are not ovalled out. It typically the skinnjy spring that needs a little tightening.
Once you do that......your vacuum advance function becomes more critical because it is what comes in the earliest and gets you off the line. Ray
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Keith Park
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 225
Location: Clifton Park NY
Keith Park is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: D-Jet PhD Sticky. Newbies Need Not Enter. Advanced FI Tuning Reply with quote

This is good info, when I get back next week Ill go thru the distributor, I rebuilt it back when I originally starting using this motor but not to the detail I have learned since, so Ill check these items before I get too much farther with the tuning so I have stable timing.

I have the vac retard hooked up but not the advance yet, where is the best place to do that? my throttle body only has one nipple on it and that's on the retard.

Thanks

Keith
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