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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: '73 Owners - Another Electrical Question (Ugh) |
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I know I've been asking a lot of tedious questions lately, but '73 Thing owners please indulge me one more time.
I'm working on wiring diagrams for the BN4, and I've run into some discrepancies between the source documents and my car, so I'm hoping to build some sort of consensus. I need for folks to have a look at the wiring for the heater timer switch. So get out that phillips screwdriver and open up the left dash panel please. I have questions about 3 of the wires plugged into the timer switch.
The red wire: where does it go? Maybe it's supposed to go to fuse 9 (fuses are numbered from left to right, 1 through 10, so 9 would be second from the right.) Please have a look at where yours goes and report back.
The black wire: where does it go? I won't even hazard a guess, and I predict there will be some variation in the answers. Mine goes to fuse 2.
Finally, there's a thin wire that goes from terminal 58b on the light switch over to the heater switch where it makes a stop before heading off to the speedometer bulb. What color is that wire? I'm looking for gray/red or red/white.
And the extra bonus question: There should be two thick wires coming out of terminal 30 on the light switch. Are they both red with a white stripe?
Please resist the temptation to respond with where you think the black and red wires should go. Have a look at your car.
Thanks in advance to all who participate. |
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Van-go108
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Joined: November 23, 2006
Posts: 2995
Location: Southwestern, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I'll do it tomorrow when I'm off. I have to get into that panel anyway. It is a bit of a rat nest (especially since after I put the new Turn Signal Module in there.  )
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thinghunter
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Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 403
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: |
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O.K. since you are doing so many such a great service I am sitting in my mostly unmolested original 73 Thing right now looking at this although my screws are common not phillips head(we need a concensus on this too please unless you are talking about the screws underneath on the hinges of the dash because those are phillips)
Red wire yes fuse 9 where it joins with a thicker red wire and heads off through the firewall to the heater.
Black wire looks like it goes to term 56 on the headlight switch where it is pigtailed with a fat black/red wire.
The grey w/red stripe wire coming from 58b on the headlight switch actually is coming FROM the DEF light by the Temp control cable on the bottom left of the dash then to the headlight switch then to the heater switch then to the speedometer light. (misread you on this at first but though I might as well leave what I originally typed)
And yes both wires coming off term 30 on the headlight switch are red w/ white stripe but the one going off into the main wire harness has a slightly thinner white stripe than the one going to the fuse block.
Like I said mine is a mostly unmolested Thing so for what it's worth I think this is how it came from Mexico but since I have not owned it since new I may be proven wrong by the concensus. |
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Thanks ThingHunter. I think you'll find on second glance that the red/black wire you thought was at 56 is actually at X. I've had a response from another source and they report the black wire going to X on the light switch as well.
Van, I look forward to your input tomorrow. |
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SilverThing 
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Joined: July 19, 2004
Posts: 810
Location: Everett
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: Re: '73 Owners - Another Electrical Question (Ugh) |
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Captain Spalding,
Sorry to repeat what I sent you earlier, but it might be helpful for other people so I will post it here as well. I'm glad I had all of this written down before I closed up my dash this morning.
| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| The red wire: where does it go? Maybe it's supposed to go to fuse 9 (fuses are numbered from left to right, 1 through 10, so 9 would be second from the right.) Please have a look at where yours goes and report back. |
The red wire on the heater switch goes directly to fuse 9 on my car where it is joined together with another red wire using the same female connector. The other red wire goes into a sheath (along with the grey wire from the heater switch and another sheathed wire that looks like it is off the fuel gauge) that goes into the trunk.
| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| The black wire: where does it go? I won't even hazard a guess, and I predict there will be some variation in the answers. Mine goes to fuse 2. |
My black wire goes to terminal X on the headlight switch. The black/red wire from the ignition switch also attaches to terminal X on the headlight switch. They don't both use the same female spade connector like the red wires above, but instead press separately onto a special female spade connector with two male connectors on it. Section 81 of the parts manual shows the special connector. It has the part number 111 971 511.
| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| Finally, there's a thin wire that goes from terminal 58b on the light switch over to the heater switch where it makes a stop before heading off to the speedometer bulb. What color is that wire? I'm looking for gray/red or red/white. |
Mine is routed like thinghunter's and is grey/red.
| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| And the extra bonus question: There should be two thick wires coming out of terminal 30 on the light switch. Are they both red with a white stripe? |
Both are red with a white stripe, but I didn't notice if the strips were the same thickness. I ended up opening up the dash again just to double check. My bad. Sure enough one has a thicker stripe than the other. |
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thinghunter
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Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 403
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
Thanks ThingHunter. I think you'll find on second glance that the red/black wire you thought was at 56 is actually at X. I've had a response from another source and they report the black wire going to X on the light switch as well.
Van, I look forward to your input tomorrow. |
Do I have to go back out and check as my next assignment or can I just assume you are correct and I did not look carefully enough. |
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| thinghunter wrote: |
| Do I have to go back out and check as my next assignment or can I just assume you are correct and I did not look carefully enough. |
You don't have to, but as you have an unmolested Thing, I hope to prevail upon your generous nature once more.
The red/black wire that we've been talking about leaves terminal X on the light switch makes its way below the dash to the right side of the steering column, plugging in to the ignition switch. According to the 181 diagram, there's a second red/black wire connected to the x terminal on the ignition switch. That's 2 red/black wires on the same terminal. Does your car have that second red/black wire? If so, where does it go. Supposedly that's where the black wire from the heater timer switch is supposed to connect. I think.
And while you're checking that out, it couldn't hurt to double check that the red black wire connects to x on the light switch rather than 56. |
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howiesfamily
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Joined: March 31, 2004
Posts: 858
Location: Panther City, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Captain,
I went out at lunch and checked my 73. My wiring is complete and original. The black wire from the heater timer switch is connected to the X terminal on the headlight switch with a V type tab like Thinghunter and SilverThing both described. The thick red/blk wire connects to the X terminal also. The wire connected to the 56 terminal is white/black and goes to the headlight relay.
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yellow73kubel
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Joined: August 17, 2008
Posts: 789
Location: Columbia, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: Re: '73 Owners - Another Electrical Question (Ugh) |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| The red wire: where does it go? Maybe it's supposed to go to fuse 9 (fuses are numbered from left to right, 1 through 10, so 9 would be second from the right.) Please have a look at where yours goes and report back. |
Mine goes to fuse 9, as described.
| Quote: |
| The black wire: where does it go? I won't even hazard a guess, and I predict there will be some variation in the answers. Mine goes to fuse 2. |
Black wire on mine goes from the heater timer to terminal X on the light switch. There it is joined with a thick red/white wire which goes to terminal X on the ignition switch.
| Quote: |
| Finally, there's a thin wire that goes from terminal 58b on the light switch over to the heater switch where it makes a stop before heading off to the speedometer bulb. What color is that wire? I'm looking for gray/red or red/white. |
Grey with red stripe.
| Quote: |
| And the extra bonus question: There should be two thick wires coming out of terminal 30 on the light switch. Are they both red with a white stripe. |
Yup, red with white stripe for each.
About the two red/black wires.. I have the one mentioned that joins the two terminals marked X. There is another one coming off of the ignition terminal marked "50". This one travels into the engine bay somewhere. I didn't track it the whole way, since I need to clean up the wires back there to see them correctly. Looks like it went to one of the tail lights, but I am not 100% sure..
I hope this helps some, great idea you have here. |
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SilverThing
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Joined: July 19, 2004
Posts: 810
Location: Everett
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| The red/black wire that we've been talking about leaves terminal X on the light switch makes its way below the dash to the right side of the steering column, plugging in to the ignition switch. According to the 181 diagram, there's a second red/black wire connected to the x terminal on the ignition switch. That's 2 red/black wires on the same terminal. Does your car have that second red/black wire? If so, where does it go. Supposedly that's where the black wire from the heater timer switch is supposed to connect. I think. |
I took a closer look and there are two red/black wires leaving the ignition switch, but they are on different terminals. I did an electrical continuity test for the heck of it and one of them goes to terminal X on the headlight switch as previously mentioned. The other took a little more doing to figure out. It disappears into a sheath almost immediately off of the ignition switch. I managed to follow that sheath and it too disappeared into the sheath for the main harness that runs along the tunnel. After some searching, I finally found the wire at the starter where it connects to the hard start relay I installed last year. I think it is the wire that runs to terminal 50 on the starter. It is drawn as a solid red wire on track 25 in the wiring flow diagram.
While I was looking for the second elusive red/black wire I found another one behind the dash. This one had a thinner black stripe than the ones on the ignition switch. It goes from the emergency flasher terminal 30 to fuse 10. It is drawn as a red wire in the wiring diagram.
Isn't wiring fun? 
Last edited by SilverThing on Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
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Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Thank you everyone for your participation so far. Based on your observations I will be revising the 181 wiring diagrams to show the following.
Change wire color of wire going from light switch terminal 30 to fuse 9 from red to red/white.
Change wire color of wire from spade terminal 50 on starter to 50 on ignition from red to red/black.
Remove 2nd red/black wire from X on ignition switch to Z, and add a black wire to X on the light switch.
Append descriptions to include more specific connections to the heater.
I will modify the pending BN-4 diagrams to show the black wire from the timer switch going to terminal x on the light switch. Also to show the wire to terminal 58b as gray/red, and going to the speedo lamp and the light switch.
If anyone disagrees with any of this, please sing out.
Many thanks to everyone for your help. I'd be pleased if anyone else cares to double check. A consensus is building, but the sample is still small.
TIA. |
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SilverThing
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Joined: July 19, 2004
Posts: 810
Location: Everett
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| I will modify the pending BN-4 diagrams to show the black wire from the timer switch going to terminal x on the light switch. Also to show the wire to terminal 58b as gray/red, and going to the speedo lamp and the light switch. |
Should the heater diagrams also show the gray/red wiring going to the DEF light above the temperature control cable and the light next to the defrost/heat lever (L16 and L21 respectively)?
Also does K11 make sense for the label for the timer switch illumination bulb? I know that its the way it is in the original vw heater docs, but it looks to me like it doesn't fit the pattern on light bulb naming in the main wiring schematics. K labeled bulbs seem to be indicator lights, L are dash lighting (with the exception of the sealed beam headlights), and M seem to be external illumination and signals. Maybe I am seeing a pattern when there is none (the headlights for example). It doesn't bother me either way, but I thought I might ask.
Is the wire between fuse 10 and terminal 30 on the emergency flasher red/black on anybody else's car? |
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thinghunter
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Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 403
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| thinghunter wrote: |
| Do I have to go back out and check as my next assignment or can I just assume you are correct and I did not look carefully enough. |
You don't have to, but as you have an unmolested Thing, I hope to prevail upon your generous nature once more.
The red/black wire that we've been talking about leaves terminal X on the light switch makes its way below the dash to the right side of the steering column, plugging in to the ignition switch. According to the 181 diagram, there's a second red/black wire connected to the x terminal on the ignition switch. That's 2 red/black wires on the same terminal. Does your car have that second red/black wire? If so, where does it go. Supposedly that's where the black wire from the heater timer switch is supposed to connect. I think.
And while you're checking that out, it couldn't hurt to double check that the red black wire connects to x on the light switch rather than 56. |
The black and red w/black wires on the light switch do connect to terminal X as everyone else said. There are not 2 red w/black wires on the same terminal on my ignition switch. There are 4 wires on the ignition switch 1)The previously mentioned red w/black 2)Another red w/black that I'm assuming as stated earlier runs to the starter 3)A solid black that runs to fuse 1 and 4)A solid red that runs to fuse 10. If I am wrong on this it is because I didn't take my laptop to the garage with me and type it in as I was looking at it. |
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thinghunter
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Posts: 403
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| SilverThing wrote: |
| Is the wire between fuse 10 and terminal 30 on the emergency flasher red/black on anybody else's car? |
Yes, yes it is.
Now I really want to know, who has phillips screws holding the dash pods in and who has common? The owner's manual shows phillips but I have common. Did the PO switch out all the screws with common ones or is that what is supposed to be there? Sorry Capn for the highjack but it is related and you mentioning phillips screws is what got me to wondering  |
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SilverThing
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Location: Everett
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Mine are all phillips, but none are matching as there were a weird mix of screws holding the dash together when I bought it. |
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howiesfamily
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Posts: 858
Location: Panther City, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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all phillips screws here.
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| SilverThing wrote: |
| Mine are all phillips, but none are matching as there were a weird mix of screws holding the dash together when I bought it. |
Phillips.
Also, there's a red/black wire going from 30 on the EF switch to fuse 30 on my car too.
I have a lot of work to do. . . |
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SilverThing
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Location: Everett
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| I have a lot of work to do. . . |
I think you've made a good set of documents so far and at least in my opinion you will have made something far more useful, and accurate I might add, than what was previously available. |
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thinghunter
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Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 403
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| SilverThing wrote: |
| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| I have a lot of work to do. . . |
I think you've made a good set of documents so far and at least in my opinion you will have made something far more useful, and accurate I might add, than what was previously available. |
I second this and have no problem checking whatever as long as I don't mess something up in the process.
| howiesfamily wrote: |
| all phillips screws here. |
Now I have a reason to come to Angelo's tonight  |
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| SilverThing wrote: |
| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| I will modify the pending BN-4 diagrams to show the black wire from the timer switch going to terminal x on the light switch. Also to show the wire to terminal 58b as gray/red, and going to the speedo lamp and the light switch. |
Should the heater diagrams also show the gray/red wiring going to the DEF light above the temperature control cable and the light next to the defrost/heat lever (L16 and L21 respectively)? |
Well, those aren't part of the BN-4 per se. That deserves some thought.
| Quote: |
| Also does K11 make sense for the label for the timer switch illumination bulb? I know that its the way it is in the original vw heater docs, but it looks to me like it doesn't fit the pattern on light bulb naming in the main wiring schematics. K labeled bulbs seem to be indicator lights, L are dash lighting (with the exception of the sealed beam headlights), and M seem to be external illumination and signals |
Hmm. There are K6 and K7, emergency flasher switch and the brake warning lamp. And wiring diagrams for other VW models are rife with "K" designations for bulbs in knobs or behind bezels. I share your confusion regarding the logic for the K/L differentiation. If the point of your inquiry is to suggest re-labeling K11, let me say that the notion of re-labeling should be approached with caution. Take the "L" lamps. We have L 1&2, the headlamps, and then L6, the speedometer lamps. What happened to L 3, 4, and 5? Why not just re-label L6 and L21 as L3 and L4? In my research I've looked at a lot diagrams for many models of VW. One can see an effort being made to make the letter designations the same across all models. We see gaps in the number sequences on the Thing because there are components that other models have that Things lack. For example, in a Karmann Ghia L6 is still the speedometer lamps, but L7 is the lamp for the separate fuel gauge, and L8 is the lamp for the clock. I think once a component gets a label, it's exclusive to that part, across models. Perhaps if I knew more about the wiring diagrams for all models, that piece of the puzzle critical to understanding the K/L differentiation would fall into place.
This discussion is pretty heavy, considering . . . |
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