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skyto
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 177
Location: Finland
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 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: Re: 36hp Oil Pump question |
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| Bart Dunn wrote: |
| 36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
| The only cautions are to be sure to use the 6mm hole style pump cover and outer pump cover gasket |
What's the rationale on only using the 6mm hole cover? Why does that make a difference, and if you want to use a full-flow cover with 8mm holes, what's the downside, assuming you put some sort of spacer in to take up the slack? |
Me too, want to know this. |
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Bart Dunn
Samba Consiglieri
Joined: May 09, 2004
Posts: 2354
Location: Sea level (Mid Atlantic)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Here are my thoughts on it, based on tinkering and my experimental solution, from another thread. Getting ready to start it on the test stand...
| Bart Dunn wrote: |
Long time between updates....been busy with new kids, work, etc. Have been working on the sedan and getting it roadworthy, most significantly with the engine, although brakes are all done, new tires, wheels painted, electric mostly sorted out.
One of the things I want to do is have better oil filtration, but the full-flow plumbing looks like crap (IMHO) on a vintage engine. The galley plugs look bad enough... So, I'm fitting a CB Performance spin-on filter, as follows, which I don't think you'll really be able to see unless you get all proctological with looking at it.
Pump body fits fine in the case, but the issue arises with the 6mm studs on the older cases with the 8mm holes on this style pump. I fit a cut off valve guide in the oil galley in the pump body to line it up with the corresponding hole in the cover, like with a clutch alignment tool. Nice, tight fit:
Then I made some offset "spacers" out of some 8mm steel rod to take up the slack between the studs and the pump body and cover. You can see here one of the spacers and three of the studs, showing the problem. The issue is that while the case holds the pump body in place just fine, there's a ton of slop in the cover with these skinny studs, and the oil galleys will get all out of alignment between the pump and the cover. With these bad boys here, I can stand on it and it won't move, and I've ensured good alignment with the valve guide. Yes, the valve guide was removed before the final fitting of the pump cover:
Prior to firing up the engine, I'm going to make sure there's good oil pressure just spinning everything around with the starter. I've already cranked it around just by hand and have oil coming out the hole where the oil pressure switch is, so it appears all's going to be well.
Jugs on, fitting the heads:
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_________________
Not enough car seats fit into my:
'58 Beetle convertible
'58 Beetle sedan |
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77ducci
Samba Beer Head
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 408
Location: Gathering the Missing Parts
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Here is mine running a CB in-out pump:
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Bart Dunn
Samba Consiglieri
Joined: May 09, 2004
Posts: 2354
Location: Sea level (Mid Atlantic)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:45 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if I'm going to end up heating my oil with the spin-on filter setup I've got... that other CB in & out style may be the way to go.
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Not enough car seats fit into my:
'58 Beetle convertible
'58 Beetle sedan |
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BugMan114
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: Ellenwood, GA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
How about another location for the return line, such as above the oil pressure switch, where it is nice and large and flat? As long as it returns to a location before the oil cooler, wouldn't that work just as well?
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will this work? seems like a much better place for it, but will it work?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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skyto
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 177
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| Bart Dunn wrote: |
| I wonder if I'm going to end up heating my oil with the spin-on filter setup I've got... that other CB in & out style may be the way to go. |
Thanks for clarifying the 6mm / 8mm pump cover issue!
Don't worry about the airflow, it's not hot enough to heat the oil. I ceramic coated the exhaust for extra insurance.
My main problem was that both my Maxi2 pumps measured 69.95mm and were a loose fit. Perhaps I'll use one during the cam break in, then install the good stock pump & Fram bypass before driving out of the garage. |
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BugMan114
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: Ellenwood, GA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: |
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from what i've read, those in/out pump covers don't do anything unless, you have the mexican pump with the hole going thru it. oil is sucked to the pump, some goes directly to the bearings, and some just goes to the filter, then back out thru the hole into the sump. Almost like having an independant pump that sends oil to the filter then back to the sump.
and if your pump doesn't have the hole thru it, the filter just fills up with oil, and doesn't circulate.
is all that true? If so, i think i would rather do the extra work and do it the other way with the return line to the block. I would just feel safer having ALL the oil going to the bearings filtered first.
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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Bart Dunn
Samba Consiglieri
Joined: May 09, 2004
Posts: 2354
Location: Sea level (Mid Atlantic)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |
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I'd heard these in & out pumps might be a little more restrictive, but not completely useless. A lot of folks run this CB Maxi 2 and are happy with it. The VW pump, to my recollection, runs 30mm gears, which I thought would be a bit much for the 36hp.
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Not enough car seats fit into my:
'58 Beetle convertible
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slow36hp
scott wimberley
Joined: August 09, 2004
Posts: 3113
Location: mukilteo washington
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gimmesomeshelter
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Joined: May 08, 2004
Posts: 1466
Location: San Carlos, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hello-
Ray at Speedwell USA sells a Denzel repro cover for ~40 USD.
Cheers,
Paul Vickerman
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"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman |
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Bugrat
Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: Banjo bolt and fitting for fram full flow canister. |
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| Where do you source banjo bolts and fittings for the fram fh6pl canister housing? |
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pig-pen
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012
Posts: 570
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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hello... has anyone managed to speak to speedwell USA of late? I have been mailing about a repro oil cover for a while and some ratio rockers but no reply....
does anyone know of another source for a 6mm full flow cover? |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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I talked with Ray last week. I know he has been very busy. Keep emailing him...
Just a few thoughts on the cover...I bought a Gene Berg 8mm cover, welded the holes and re-drilled for 6mm.
But...after talking with Berg, they sell a washer used to adapt 8mm covers to 6mm engines. Its basically a regular washer with the right dimensions to fit tight to the stud and cover the 8mm holes.
Gene Berg states that there are no issues using an 8mm cover with their washers...
Last edited by txoval on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pig-pen
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012
Posts: 570
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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cool, thanks.. will try again.
Just want a denzel repro as it will look real nice  |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| When you email him, leave your number and ask him to call you about the cover |
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pig-pen
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012
Posts: 570
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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ok... so I am back and plans have changed kinda...
I want to fit some kind of oil filtration to my motor
right now I am not going to open it up as there is no end float and compression is excellent in every cylinder...
so, as far as I can tell this limits me to two options, without drilling and tapping the case etc.
1. fit a reproduction fram system. This is expensive, and right now I am not making a show motor so historical accuracy may not be what I need, also this only partly filters oil? is that correct?
2. use a more modern pump? with an in & out cover. The berg website says these drop pressure and are no good. true? can anyone give some real life feedback on this?
3. stop being cheap, break the motor down and tap it for a return, using a 21mm pump... unless I can return using the hollow bolt in the fram kits that are for sale or is this too restrictive?
HELP!!!!
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| pig-pen wrote: |
2. use a more modern pump? with an in & out cover. The berg website says these drop pressure and are no good. true? can anyone give some real life feedback on this? |
It's true that you will lose some pressure with an in and out cover and I suppose even the oil filter will drop some pressure so there's that overhead no matter what you do. Compensate by running a pump with slightly larger gears.
"No good" is subjective. Measure your oil pressure as-is. Install an in and out cover with slightly larger pump and measure again. Science over subjectivity. |
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pig-pen
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012
Posts: 570
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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thats what I figured. so a 21mm should be good right?
what exactly should I be looking for??? and any recommendations for a good in & out cover?
I figure this is my best option as it is easy to get done! |
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I've seen a lot of people running the 21mm pump on their 36hp builds and they seem to work fine. So assuming your motor isn't losing pressure from case warpage and worn bearings, that would be the one to try.
As far as the in-out cover goes, I have not seen any new ones for sale that have 6mm holes in them. I do recall seeing someone having custom spacers or washers to fit the 8mm cover on a 6mm stud, perhaps it was a Gene Berg item. You could always have a machine shop make a cover, or patiently search the classifieds.
This one is probably 8mm holes:
http://www.socalautoparts.com/product_info.php/per...mm-p-13718 |
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slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
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You could also use the stepped studs that people use to put late oil coolers on early cases. One end is 6mm the other is 8mm. I ran a cb in out pump for years and never had a problem with oil temps or pressure.
brad |
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