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Lowering with T-1 spindels.
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max2919
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:03 pm    Post subject: Lowering with T-1 spindels. Reply with quote

Hello,

I did a search on dropping a Barndoor and realy didn't find what I'm looking for.

Need more info about T-1 spindels on a 54 barndoor.

Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PM Beaterbarndoor. His name is Mark.
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BeaterBarndoor
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you beat me to it Bubba.
this has been discussed in here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=174182&highlight=spindle

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djfordmanjack
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the above pictured conversion looks wonderful and to what I read about it drives nicely.
But it's even easier than that. I use pre 65 King and linkpin beetle spindles
on my original 54 panel beam, it takes a small sleeve and a bit of fiddling with the bolts of the linkpins, but can be done.( diameter of linkpins on the transporter is bigger than on beetles). It'll carry the load as nobody today puts 750kg in his old bus ( and even if so, it will work no doubt). This setup narrows the track some, drops the bus by estimated 4-5 inches
(you can still use 5.60-15s on steelies without scraping the fenderwells, but it's close already, one could use Konis to avoid that) and as the most bonus sets the tierods on a horizontal level. You have to play with tie rod ends, since the bus trailing arm lever has got
big cones, but no problem, take those of a Mexican bug, along with the tie rods and small cone outer tierod ends. You don't even have to shorten the tie rods, they fit perfectly.....and how come?....I'm a HotRodder and like to take a different aproach to things, I don't give a damn on aftermarket spindles, wheels or whatever crap.... Laughing
And YES, the 40mm beetle brakes won't stop you as well as modern Cayenne calipers, but what the hell.... you could even put on one of those 5x205 disc brake conversions...
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Busfarmer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I also used bug spindles and this was the result. I barely had to adjust the toe when I was done installing the bug spindles. This both lowered and narrowed the front end. I removed the link pins and bushings from both spindles then turned down the bushings for the bus link pins and installed them into the bug spindle. I have pictures of the job if interested.
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BeaterBarndoor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would definately like to see pictures.
i had thought a little about link pin spindles but they looked like they sit out a little more than the ball joint ones(when using beetle trail arms). once mine were finished i just never put much effort into learning about the link pin set up. plus i dont have the parts laying around.
so if i understand correctly,you used the bus trail arms and its just the beetle spindles that were used? i may just go this route for my 54.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the link pin bug to bus idea.. wouldn't the difference in tube spacing cause way wrong castor and make it drive bad? BJ bug tube spacing is probably close to bus.. But not sure.. I have put bug drum brakes on a bus before.. Not a good idea in my opinion.. especially at highway speeds with my whole family with me going down big hills.. But would probably be fine around town..
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Busfarmer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Bug spindle with the bus link pin installed. I turned down the housing for the bus link pin but the housing is to long.
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I machined 1 side of the bug spindle
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Made a collar for the other side.
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Installed the collar
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Installed the spindle. I am able to run alignment shims on the link pins with both sides being a smooth surface and there is almost no difference in the toe. I reamed the spindle so the stock barndoor tie rod ends work and the geometry feels correct when I drive. I did have to pull 2 springs out of the front to get the bus to sit as low as it is but I will be putting them back and trying lowered spindles instead.
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BeaterBarndoor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KCW wrote:
I like the link pin bug to bus idea.. wouldn't the difference in tube spacing cause way wrong castor and make it drive bad? BJ bug tube spacing is probably close to bus.. But not sure.. I have put bug drum brakes on a bus before.. Not a good idea in my opinion.. especially at highway speeds with my whole family with me going down big hills.. But would probably be fine around town..


hey John, when i think back ,i was debating just modifying and installing a beetle beam alltogether. i dont recall ,and i have no beetle beams here ,but i think one of the beams was very similar in build to the bus as far as spacing goes. i dont recall which offhand though.

as far as the caster,i cant say ive had any issue with my set up. it runs straight, i have never felt much for bumpstear and my tires have no abnormal wear whatsoever with the many miles i put on them.

i have been driving it this way for several years and i am pleased. definately a disc brake is ideal. i am running the AC Industry brakes. i would probably like to upgrade to a better caliper set up though. there is room for them to stop better.

overall i think its well worth the mods for the benefits or lowering and narrowing without doing a thing other than installing beetle spindles.

Todd, thanks for posting the pictures. i think i will definately be looking into that set up when i dig into my other bus.
for a long time i was debating on mating a bus trail arm to a beetle ball end .this would allow full use of the bus slats and tension,whereas my set up now have carved up slats to fit a beetle arm. this ends up with less pretension and making it tough to ride with more than a person or 2.
your method seems a bit less work involved.
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max2919
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUPER info! Very Happy

Thanks Wink

/Max
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Busfarmer wrote:

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Nicely done with a bit of machining Exclamation . and I think this is a great method of lowering with little cost involved and all genuine VW parts.

No worry about the caster, the pre 65 beetle beam has the same axle tube distance as the pre 55 Bus, so all geometry stays the same. one could even use a bug beam and reweld the mounting brackets, but I guess it's better to stay with the harder bus springs, to avoid too soft a ride as mentioned above.
I like simple things . Laughing
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Scotty
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the steering arm on the bug spindle is different (in plan view) from that of the barndoor one you will screw up the steering geometry and your tyres will wear quickly. I installed late bus spindles onto my barndoor and the steering was bad. It had terrible bump steer and when turning the wheels had a different centre point causing one of the tyres to drag.

Barndoor spindle:

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Later Bus spindle:

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I don't know how a bug spindle compares to a bus one, but they can't be the same.

I'm now running some different spindles with the steering arm identical to barndoor ones
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scotty wrote:


Barndoor spindle:

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I don't know how a bug spindle compares to a bus one, but they can't be the same.

I'm now running some different spindles with the steering arm identical to barndoor ones


Scotty, thats the beauty of the beetle spindle. they are very much like Barndoor. the tie rod connection arm on beetle spindle is basically in the same position as barndoor.it may not look like it side by side, but they really are within fractions of an inch the same position if i remember correctly.at least ball joint are that way. i cannot confirm link pin are the same. another thing to check out before doing i suppose.

as stated, i have put many thousands of miles on my set up with no sign of any abnormal wear.
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Scotty
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it does look like the ball joint spindle is very close, but that K&L spindle just looks way off from that side on shot. I guess we need a photo from above for comparison.

When you do some reading up on steering geometry then it becomes very clear that you shouldn't mess with the facotry set up, and it becomes very clear when you drive something that has had the geometry messed up that it doesn't work at all.

I remember the brackets you made when you had late bus spindles fitted to your barndoor, so I know you understand about this stuff!
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I'd be curious to know the length of his tip.


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max2919
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone used T-1 K/P dropped spindels?
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Busfarmer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Drivers side with the bug spindle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Drivers side with the barndoor spindle.


I also have a barndoor that I lowered using a 63 spindle and geometry is all out of wack. Makes it kind of fun to drive. I like the bug spindle a lot better because it also narrows the front without and modifications to the suspension. Believe it or not I still try to keep the bus as original as possible while I'm having fun with it. No wheel tubs or air lines if you know what I mean.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Busfarmer wrote:
Believe it or not I still try to keep the bus as original as possible while I'm having fun with it. No wheel tubs or air lines if you know what I mean.


Well spoken ! Wink and you couldn't get closer to original than with using OLD original VW parts, even if they come from a bug...

I have to admit while talking front axles earlier, I made a Really BIG mistake in believing that the early bus and bug axles have the same tube distance. i checked back today and compared my 54 panel beam to my 54 bug beam and they are different, shame on me ! Embarassed
but its only 120mm compared to approx. 140 with the bus beam.
so I still don't think there is any dramatic change in caster. also concerning that the bus springs are still in original position and the trailing arms close to horizontal when loaded. Also as busfarmer mentioned, the steering geometry stays pretty close to the original setup and tie rods are as horizontal with as little bump steer as you'd ever get. I haven't put any miles on my setup yet, but it feels and looks right.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Dude,
The stance looks great. I haven't seen it since it was in the air. And I kinda like the ol' skool camber lean on the rears. I forgot what you told me you were stuffing in the rear. um, I mean what set up are you rockin out back.
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Busfarmer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Type 3 long axle trans with a 1915. Should ride down the freeway at a decent speed.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Busfarmer wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Drivers side with the bug spindle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Drivers side with the barndoor spindle.


I will admit from the side they look to be very similar, but you'll only know for sure when you look in plan view.

According to the principles of steering geometry, if you draw a line from the centre of the king pin (on each side of the car) to the centre line of the rear axle, the best position for the centre point of the tie rod is on that line:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now I don't know if a barndoor is set up like this or not, but just speaking from my experience of running late spindles on a barndoor with barndoor steering is that it got messed up.

I'm sure those bug spindles are very close, but if they're not spot on I'm sure you'll get interesting tyre wear
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I'd be curious to know the length of his tip.


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