steering opinion

[SGKent]

Have a 1977 steering box. Slowing dripping steering gear oil. We tightened the lash using Bentley and the proper torque inch gauge. There is still a tiny clunk in it. Relay arm bushing was also replaced as was drag link, tie rods and ball joints.

So I have two problems - the seal is worn allowing dripping, and there is a mild clunk. I considered a new steering box but they are all brazilian made and the photos looked different. I can get a new seal and fix the leak on the old box or I can buy a new brazilian box.

Has anyone used the brazilian boxes and what kind of long term wear do they have? Is a mild clunk when rocking the steering normal in these? If you have replaced the seal, how did you get the old one out and press the new one in?
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[ScottK]

Here's a thread on seal replacement:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336201

[SGKent]

thank you - perfect answer.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[atmellovw]

SG,

That thread is mine. Unfortunately, my box started leaking again about a month after I replaced that seal. Maybe you will have better luck! Note that my box ('72) is different from yours and takes a different sized seal. German Supply has the seals.
_________________
1972 Westy ("Bubbles") - Pastel White - 1700(1974 MT) - Dual Solex

[Desertbusman]

You are fortunate that you have the later box where you can at least get a new economical replacement. If the general design of the output shaft is the same as earlier boxes, that is where your clunk might be. Rest your finger on the end of the housing and the pitman arm or the output shaft if there is room. Touch both places at the same time with one finger and have someone turn the wheel to make the clunk. You will feel the movement and the sound. Suppose it would have to be installed so it get's the load of the system. And that clunk sound also transmits down the rest of the system. But the source is the output shaft slop in the bearing surface of the housing snout as it whips from one side of contact to the other. At least with the early boxes it seems like maybe even .002" total wear of the shaft and housing makes the noise. If yours is the same design and you get the seal issue worked out it might be worth some quality machine shop work on precision grinding of the shaft and fitting a new sleeve insert. Again, if it's like the early box design the provision for lubrication of that bore and shaft is very poor. That could be corrected.
_________________
71 Superbug
71 Westy

[SGKent]

is there anyone out there who has used the new boxes made in Brazil and if so what results, how do they hold up, noise, refilling with oil,, leaks etc.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[SGKent]

anyone use the Brazilian boxes? your opinions please.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[foxtail1]

Call Bus Boys at 530-244-1616. They have rebuilt boxes, but they are not cheap about 300 + for them plus exchange.
_________________
As they say, "You never know until you ask the question."

64 bug
64 bus
59 ghia
71 bus

[SGKent]

I saw where Wolfgang has rebuilt boxes for about that price. I would be interested in results from anyone who has tried one of these rebuilt boxes. Busboys has on their site only the new Brazilian ones for the late bays.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[SGKent]

Everett locked the other thread so I will reopen this one per his majesty's request. The oil leak was stopped with a new seal and the steering gear tuned per Bentley but it is still junk with 2" or more of freeplay. A used box we bought through theSamba is gritty so we aren't buying anymore used boxes. And from this prior thread we learned that the Brazilian ones weren't made so good either. So now all we need to know if anyone in Sambaland is using a rebuilt late box that they are 100% satisfied with and if so where did they get it.

_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[73kombi]

I'm using my OG box that came with my bus...it has some play, which can be scary at times. (think high winds, or oncoming semi's) But it's pretty decent.

You'll get used to it after you take your bus out of the garage...

There are a plethora of decent boxes in crashed buses across America...I see them all the time.....many better than mine.

peace

p.s. that's my "opinion"

[SGKent]

73Kombi - I hear ya and agree but at $60 to $100 a used steering box shipped, I can't afford to buy any more and turn them into paperweights. Your opinion on this means a lot to me and I thank you for it. We were on the freeway yesterday being buffeted by SUV's and I was having to crank the wheel back and forth like a pinball machine. My 1971 was never like that. Big trucks and crosswinds yes made it a challenge at times but this was constant every time anything bigger than a honda passed us. I am talking 2" of play vs about 1/2" that used to be in my 1971 that had 350,000 miles on it. I am out of patience buying parts for this bus.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[73kombi]

[SGKent]

Thanks 73Kombi

I do have some more info tonight. The spare one that we have which is gritty is a G model steering box so I don't know if it would even fit. It is made in France and I think from a 73 or 74. But 73Kombi got me thinking about this so I said since it is a door stop why not take it apart? So now it is fully apart and waiting to be cleaned. Once cleaned I will take photos for everyone of the parts so anyone who is interested can see what is inside one.

The seals are shown in Kaman Bearings catalog.

The upper is 22x32x7

The lower is 28x38x7. The last ones I bought came as Timken sku number 0 53893 503813

The ball bearings in this one at the top and bottom of the input shaft are like those on an old bicycle crank - mounted in a plastic cage and are 5/16 (.3125) inch. I don't know if the ZF will be the same or not. I checked the ball bearings with a micrometer and they show some signs of elongation so we will put new ones in and see how much play is there. There is a shim but it could be sanded on glass to make it thinner if needed. The races are in excellent condition and there is no play at the upper or lower bushings. The grittiness is just age and dust that has gotten in over the years - hardened grease etc.

When we are done we will see how it works and if it is as good as new we will probably have to sell it since it is the G model instead of H.

Based on how it works, the shaft that the steering column hooks to has a peg gear in it that the other shaft passes by. The peg shaft fits into the worm (main) shaft, When the adjustment screw is tightened it pushes the peg tight into the worm gear. Both have a taper so even as they wear they should still be adjustable for a long time - at least the G model is. This one has enough built up debris in it that it is not smooth anymore. I am hoping cleaning and new bearings will fix that.

I think what has happened to the one on my bus is that without oil, the teeth on the worm wore in a way that their width is not even. This allows too much freeplay. That or there is so much debris I am getting false readings on the adjustment. We'll see and keep you posted.

The French one that is apart has the top and bottom seal and a big o-ring as seals. No paper like the early ones. There was something like gascacinch or curil on it to help seal it.

_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[ddwbeagles]

Of course even worn or bad parts look good when cleaned, but judging by the photos I don't see a great deal of wear. I would be curious if your cleaned it all up, relubed everthing and reassembled if the "knock" or glitch disappears. Is that the plan of was it kind of a "discovery" motive to see what's inside on the bad box?
_________________
David W - from Chesterfield, VA / Jefferson SD / Stephens City, VA in that order.

71 Ghia Coupe autostick
78 Westy
86 Vanagon Weekender

[SGKent]

yes David - I was wondering what was inside and if the grittinesss could be cleaned out of this gear. I believe this one will be good when done but it is a G model and my bus came with the H. The G is like 73 or 74, and the H is later. The G is made in France and I believe the H is made in Germany. If this one works then I will try the H one to see if cleaning it makes it better. The freeplay is set by torque resistance when turning or by -0- freeplay in the shaft when the steering wheel is turned 180 degrees. Both methods leave over 2" of freeplay in the steering wheel on my H model. About 5/8" is the wear limit. It may be nothing more than dirt and rust has gotten into the box and made them feel tight and drag when they really have freeplay under load. Or it could be the races and shaft are worn from lack of oil.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[ddwbeagles]

OK probably a stupid question here, but..... When you removed the "H" style steering box, could you still feel the bump or glitch in it? Or is this something you can only tell when it's under a load (i.e. installed). I like so many others have a late model bay and watch your threads carefully for ideas, discoveries and motivation. Great work and hope these few remaining tweaks get resolved so you can enjoy all that hard work.
_________________
David W - from Chesterfield, VA / Jefferson SD / Stephens City, VA in that order.

71 Ghia Coupe autostick
78 Westy
86 Vanagon Weekender

[borninabus]

it's always nice to have extra parts laying around to practice on

good luck on your endeavor. let us know how it works out.
_________________
88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport

[SGKent]

[SGKent]

here are the photos of the cleaned and disassembled French /G VW type 2 steering gear. This one cleaned up well and if it will fit a late 70's bay it should work. However the /G is for about 73-74 so it may not fit and I may have to sell it. I got new seals today from Kaman Bearing and new ball bearings from McMaster-Carr.

_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin