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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: The Build: 223HP Type 4 & 915 Tranny into a '68 Double C |
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I figured I'd start a build thread for my Double Cab project to share pics and details...
General Specs:
Engine- 2.4 Liter MassIVe Type 4.
Base engine- 2.0 Liter Porsche 914
Crank- 84mm Forged
Rods- 5.325"
Bearings- Pc3 Coated rod, main and cam bearings.
Cam- RAT 9500 series
Lifters- RAT
Cylinders and Pistons- 96mm LN Engineering Nickies with JE Forge Pistons and low tension rings
Heads- RAT 210CFM with 48X38 valves
Compression Ratio- 10.2:1
Exhaust System- 1-3/4" tangerine Racing header coupled to a Phase 9 Silencer
Induction- Pair of 40mm dells with 36mm Vents
Dizzy- Mallory Unilite
Transaxle- Porsche 923 with stock gear ratios, built by Blake Meredith/ Aircooled Technology. Custom chromoly axles.
Brakes- Porsche 944 Turbo on all 4 corners.
Wheels- Still undecided, probably Porsche Sport Design 18"
The subject and description above pretty much says it all.. Stuffing a 2.4 liter, 223HP MassIVe Type 4 engine coupled to a 5 speed, Porsche 915 gearbox... Using as many factory VW and Porsche parts to do the job as possible.. Making the conversion look like something that would have been done at Stuttgart factory is the goal and that means simplicity, effectiveness and a sanitary appearance.
I already have the engine assembled and it spent 3 days in my Dyno Lab, making a peak of 223HP @ 5,500 RPM with only a pair of 40mm Dellorto carbs with 36mm Venturis. The engine uses a 1-3/4" Tangerine Racing Header and phase 9 silencer. The testing was done with a Mallory Unilite Dizzy. In mid 2010 I'll be installing EFI with direct ignition.
The 923 (915) based transaxle is also built and is already installed into the Double Cab after a couple days work last week, Thanks to Danny Bradham and his awesome fabrication skills!
The 923 is a one year only transaxle built for the super rare Porsche 912E. I selected it due to it's gear ratios and strength, as well as the fact that it had a 5th gear that I could actually use in a Truck. I also had one that was in great shape in my stash.
For brakes it's getting Porsche 944 Turbos all around... and more than likely a set of 18" Sport Design rims..
We got started by ripping out the stock 1600 DP that had lived in the truck for several years. It ran OK, but was super slow and I couldn't handle downshifting... So it went to a new home and the 002 transaxle was also pulled (and is for sale) as it's gearing sucked and it didn't have enough forward speeds for a vehicle with MassIVe power..
We then dug up our old Type 4 "Mock up motor" equipped with the very first DTM ever built, coupled that to the original 002 transaxle and used it to make a new product to allow for easy install of the Type 4 into a 68-71 baywindow Bus/Truck... Note that we made sure heater boxes would fit for those who want to Type 4 power their 68-71 bay!
At that point it was time to commit sacrilege and lay the blade of the sawzall deep into the truck... (purists start cringing now) To remove the offending heater duct work that was in the way of the transaxle.
Here it is after being "Raped"...
With that out of the way it was time to have fun, so the DTM equipped mock up motor was coupled to the 923 tranny and lifted into place...
Measurements were taken and a custom mount bar was made for the rear of the engine using Porsche 914 engine mounts. We sat the engine and trans onto the lift table and positioned them exactly where they needed to be while the truck was on the lift.
Up front the factory Porsche 915 trans mount was utilized with the stock transaxle mounts.. Then it was time to fabricate some new mounting pads onto the torsion tube to hold the engine. To do this we'll channel some pieces of 2" box tubing for strength and a nice flat surface to mount the trans mounts to.
With these tacked in place the assembly was rolled out of the way so Danny could Tig weld the mounts into place...
Then we lifted the assembly back up and bolted the entire unit into place.. Amazingly the entire unit was perfectly centered right where the original engine and transaxle had been located..
The final part of this installment finds Danny and I chopping up the OE shift tube to couple it to a Mil Spec fully sealed universal joint..(seal removed for welding in pic)
Then using some 3/4" thick wall tubing we fabricate a shift rod extension that will input gear selections into the factory Porsche "hockey Stick" with precision and smoothness... Before we cut the shift rod length we had to center the shifter (Berg) and ensure the tranny was in neutral..
And here is the completed shift mechanism thats been dropped for the Porsche tranny.
All I need to do now is machine some collars for the universal joints to hold grub screws like the factory VW shift coupler.. Then throw a piece of Manganese bronze into the lathe and turn down a shift tube bushing to support the arrangement best at the transition to the first universal joint.. Then get me axle lengths and the tranny is done and ready to accept the engine..
Thats about it.. More later.. [/img]
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Lostnfound
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Joined: May 03, 2009
Posts: 236
Location: Stratford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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I so want that.... Very, Very Nice job. I'm jealous!
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!!!
You haven't seen anything yet!
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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fusername
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Joined: March 15, 2006
Posts: 2897
Location: Boston MA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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and I keep hearing you can't fit T4 in an early bay. had a feeling it wasn't true! nice looking shiftlinkage, may reverse the idea for a bus-bug conversion in the future. what does a joint like that run? Stupid question, but why do dyno outputs always start over 2000 rpm? I know you never use lower than that, but why is no one interested? is how the machine is set up, or can you not measure lower?
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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I actually tested this engine down to 1,000 RPM... Just not on this run. I test my engines as low as they'll pull, and have seen an engine pull to 500 RPM @ WOT with CIS FI... Most Ti builders start at 4K, not me.
This conversion is THE HARDEST, and until now no commercially available parts existed.. Now that mount bar is a unit sold in my store. Its heavy duty, effective and simple.. Without that bar this conversion is a real bitch, by far the most difficult TIV conversion application.
The U joints are about 70.00 each and worth double that!
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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towd
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Joined: June 20, 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| so then this drive unit will not use a mid mount ?? |
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59eurobug
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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nice Jake, very nice...
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Midmount???
No, it didn't from the factory... Neither did the 912E the tranny came from... Neither does a 914, or a Type III.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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enjoispammy8
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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GeoffP
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Joined: July 14, 2002
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Nice instalation Jake and great looking Bay! I did something similar about 5 years ago with a 2.7 911 engine and 915 trans.
The 915 is a great trans and works very well in the bus, although some welding is required as you have shown it fits with only a few mods. (shifter, bowden tube and mounts)
Muffler tucks up behind bumper
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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I can't believe that no one has mentioned the fact that I am running more than 10:1 CR in a Type II 
Thats a sweet 915 and 2.7 that you did also!! Too bad that it has too many cylinders and weighs 150 pounds more than the MassIVe counterpart LOL
what did you use for a shifter??
BTW- overlook the surface rust and etc under the truck... Once all this is fitted I'll drive it for six months, finish my "481" project and then strip this baby all the way to the frame and make one hell of a German Looker out of it!
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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rigamarole16
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| I can't believe that no one has mentioned the fact that I am running more than 10:1 CR in a Type II |
OK, I'll ask: how are you getting away with running 10:1 CR in a type II (or in anything, for that matter)? Race fuel only? E85? How do you control detonation?
Note: not all that familiar with type IVs...
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'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| I can't believe that no one has mentioned the fact that I am running more than 10:1 CR in a Type II |
OK, I'll ask: how are you getting away with running 10:1 CR in a type II (or in anything, for that matter)? Race fuel only? E85? How do you control detonation?
Note: not all that familiar with type IVs... |
No race fuel... Just 93 octane pump gas.
Fact is I don't know if it'll work or not, but being afraid isn't acceptable. We'll never find limitations by being conservative.
I have been running 10:1 for years in Beetles with TIV engines with engines up to 3 liters without an issue.. I have found that most of those engines seem to have cooler head and oil temps than their lower CR counterparts.
The engine will have full instrumentation including 4X CHT and 4X EGT gauges along with oil temp/pressure and AFR. In the interim while the engine is still carbureted and had a dizzy I'll be running a JS Safeguard to monitor detonation and control it. It'll be easy enough to see exactly what the engine is doing, and if necessary I'll toss my 24 channel data logger onto the engine. I honestly don't feel that we'll see any issues..
The engine is super efficient and it ran very cool on the dyno. An engine of this output doesn't have to work very hard to propel the vehicle and thats the key. The DTM cooling system coupled t LN Engineering Nickies cylinders, coated pistons and etc all add up and open doors that would otherwise be locked.
If I do run into issues with detonation I'll go ahead and employ our new ECU thats fully adaptive (only one exists in this country and its in testing on my 912E now) with dual range AFR and knock sensing. The unit also has the ability to inject water/methanol under detonation or pull timing away.
I really don't think we are going to have issues...... I have continued to be bold with CR and its time to bust more myths that continue to limit the capability of the aircooled engine... No Fear.
If all else fails I'll pop the heads off and twin plug them, then 10:1 CR is considered "Low".
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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chazz79
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to see more projects like this. Proving you can make real power from a t4 might inspire more folks to leave a vw engine in their bus. I think you're helping the purist movement more than you think by cutting on a truck.
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Jake Raby
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| chazz79 wrote: |
| I'd like to see more projects like this. Proving you can make real power from a t4 might inspire more folks to leave a vw engine in their bus. I think you're helping the purist movement more than you think by cutting on a truck. |
Never looked at it like that.. Good observation.
At least its all VW and Porsche parts... To this point the only thing thats been used that wasn't VW or Porsche was one piece of chromoly tubing and two universal joints for the shift linkage.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Coal64
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: |
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that is sweet I never seen one of your bus's in the working befor.
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Jake Raby
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Coal64 wrote: |
| that is sweet I never seen one of your bus's in the working befor. |
I plan on adding every step to this build thread...
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Mr. Electric Wizard
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Hell yeah Jake!
 
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| No race fuel... Just 93 octane pump gas. |
I've found that the 'quality' of high-end pump gas seems to vary a bit. Around here (San Diego), it all comes from the same pipe (you hope that the guy watching for the dye markers coming down the pipe is on his toes...)
| Quote: |
| Fact is I don't know if it'll work or not, but being afraid isn't acceptable. We'll never find limitations by being conservative. |
That's fine as a research project (it is how one finds out stuff), but not so much for everyday use. I assume that at this point you're not recommending this for a daily driver...
| Quote: |
| I have been running 10:1 for years in Beetles with TIV engines with engines up to 3 liters without an issue.. I have found that most of those engines seem to have cooler head and oil temps than their lower CR counterparts. |
Now is that with stock carb + distributor? Or have they been (highly) modified?
| Quote: |
| The engine will have full instrumentation including 4X CHT and 4X EGT gauges along with oil temp/pressure and AFR. In the interim while the engine is still carbureted and had a dizzy I'll be running a JS Safeguard to monitor detonation and control it. It'll be easy enough to see exactly what the engine is doing, and if necessary I'll toss my 24 channel data logger onto the engine. I honestly don't feel that we'll see any issues.. |
OK, you're attacking this the right way. Can't do valid research without proper instrumentation.
| Quote: |
The engine is super efficient and it ran very cool on the dyno. An engine of this output doesn't have to work very hard to propel the vehicle and thats the key. [Is this true for a bus? Going up mountains? TD] The DTM cooling system coupled to LN Engineering Nickies cylinders, coated pistons and etc all add up and open doors that would otherwise be locked.
If I do run into issues with detonation I'll go ahead and employ our new ECU that's fully adaptive (only one exists in this country and its in testing on my 912E now) with dual range AFR and knock sensing. The unit also has the ability to inject water/methanol under detonation or pull timing away. |
That's the way most car companies do it these days. It would seem to me that precision fuel injection coupled with an engine management system would be key to keeping a high CR air-cooled engine alive, given that it must perform correctly under radically different conditions (e.g. a poor tank of gas, 115 degrees in Phoenix, etc.)
| Quote: |
| I really don't think we are going to have issues...... I have continued to be bold with CR and it's time to bust more myths that continue to limit the capability of the air-cooled engine... No Fear. |
We can count on you to publish findings on this as you go along (within proprietary limits, of course...)?
What's your gut feel as to applying this technology to type I engines?
| Quote: |
| If all else fails I'll pop the heads off and twin plug them, then 10:1 CR is considered "Low". |
Does dual flame fronts make that much difference in VW engines? I know that it's SOP in air-cooled aircraft engines, but then they're rated to produce 'continuous' power, unlike automotive applications. (They're also built like a brick outhouse, relative to a VW engine...) Along those lines, there's been a lot of research lately regarding running aircraft engines lean of peak, resulting in lower fuel consumption and cooler operation (!), but it require a lot of precision in CR matching, fuel delivery and ignition timing, with accurate CHT and EGT monitoring. FWIW
Interesting project. Let us know when you start on the dual overhead cam heads (liquid cooled?) with variable cam timing...
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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