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Chopchop
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Detroit
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 Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Alignment Specs / Caster Shims |
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I just got into a huge argument with the "know-it-all-and-have-no-time-for-you" mechanic at the alignment shop. The core issue of the situation:
"Caster is not adjustable."
I said, "That can't be true. You can't tell me that VW incorporated absolutely no caster adjustment whatsoever. I thought you just turned the concentric adjuster on top of the upper ball joint to the exact proper position and camber and caster are set."
"No, it's not that simple." And turn and walk away.
How I wish to God I had internet anywhere and could've searched thesamba.com, found pages such as this one :
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=357104&highlight=alignment+specs
shown it to him and then shoved the laptop up his ass.
I've vented now. Please forgive me for this outburst. The specs, after the alignment:
Left Front Camber -.1 degree
L.F. Caster 1.1 degree
L.F. Toe 0.03"
Right Front Cam -.3 deg
R.F. Cast 2.3 deg
R.F. Toe 0.01"
Front Cross Camber .2 degrees
Cross Caster -1.1 degrees
Total Toe 0.04 degrees
Set Back .41 degrees
If I install caster shims on the bottom of the torsion bar as described in the thread posted above, will this make my caster situation better or worse?
Based on these numbers (which I have a partial understanding of), should I bother or is this close enough to "aligned properly".
The car still pulls a wee bit to the left but it is wwwaaaaayyyyy better than it was. I'm just so pissed about this mechanic and his attitude that I kind of want to install caster shims, bring it back and say, "Hey smartass, check the caster now and tell me it isn't adjustable."
The best part is that this shop is the VW expert in my city of 300,000+ people.
Any usable suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Dave |
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john7
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: Garden grove ca
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: |
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i feel for you. alignment shops are retarted, they think they know everything.
i even had one (andersons alignmant in garden grove, ca) take a sledge to the rear irs arms to adjust the settings. WTF is that.
so i after i left it cost me a set of irs trailing arms and $600 for the work that they did. (ball joints, control arm bushings, and 4 wheel alignment) and the car still pulls to the right.
i do reccommend Vodies alignment in garden grove. they are crusty guys missing teeth and they do it the old school way, over a pit with measuring devices. no stupid computers with laser beams and guys that dont know crap except adjust it til it turns green on the computer screen.
Volkswagen made caster shims to adjust the caster. I had some that had vw logos on them. they are about 1/2 the width of teh aftermarket ones currently being sold.
The bright designers at nissan made the Titan without any camber adjustment. but they did have a service bulletin with an adjustable camber kit to be installed by the dealer if anyone complained.
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Chopchop
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Good God. I thought I had it bad. I could understand wanting to take a sledge to my 40-year-old Michigan rust bucket but I'd bet the underneath of your Cali car is clean enough to eat off.
If someone did that to my car and my car was as nice as any Cali car, I'd wedge the sledge up his ass. Pardon my French and rhyme scheme.
Old school guys are worth their weight in gold but fancy-looking places have taken over and forced them out. Now we are forced to deal with generic mechanics and I know the situation is bad when I (who am a self-proclaimed "Dummy") have to explain things to a mechanic who is oblivious to anything that isn't made after 1994.
Thank you for your reply. I don't feel so bad anymore. I guess the old saying is true - "When things are bad, just find some sucker who's got it worse and you'll feel better about your own situation."
Dave |
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JerryMCarter1
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 6199
Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Alignment Specs / Caster Shims |
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Just remember this
The mechanic has a boss
The boss has a shop owner
The shop owner has to insure the shop
Get your information together and calm down and write a letter to the owner and imply that either you get a straight answer out of the boss or you will contact his insurer.
Then sit back and be assured that the smart ass mechanic has just had his ass handed to him.
Be cool Dude |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 11152
Location: Black Forest, CO
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john7
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: Garden grove ca
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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nope
vw had them to fix cars that didnt have enough caster from factory
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Chopchop
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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That was the owner ! He and his brother have owned that shop and been doing alignment since 1973. As he told me very loudly. --- I told him he must have missed the part about caster on VW's. He didn't appreciate that but then again, I didn't appreciate being yelled at. Especially when I'm the paying customer !
This shop was recommended to me by the German garage in town that does nothing but VW's. They told me they've never had any complaints about the alignment shop. (The German garage told me that after I called them to that the alignment shop was run by a jerk.) |
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JerryMCarter1
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 6199
Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Oh I get it
the guy doesn't want to do it right because it takes longer
Love those types,,, must be a big dude
for me I would have taken him outside and put a little heat on the guy just for fun!
Nothing better than rubbing a jerks face in the concrete !
hope you got your money back
Granpa here |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yes caster is adjustable on all Beetles, BUT the caster shims are only capable of raising or lowering caster across the whole front end. If they are installed to raise caster, lower tube, then the left and right caster raise by the same amount. Link and KP cars that is all you can do. As a result you cannot adjust one side to compensate for bent parts or to get rid of a pull.
On ball joint models the camber cam trades off part of it's value into caster. Therefore pulls and bent parts can be compensated to a degree. Sometimes the cam is not capable of moving far enough to bring the wheel back into specs.
Angles are in fact adjustable to allow the manufacturer to establish the designed-in angles during assembly, while assembling the vehicles from various parts that need not be, or are not, made to exacting specifications.
In other words, adjustments were used to compensate for manufacturing tolerance, but were never intended to compensate for wear or bent components.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
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Chopchop
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:37 am Post subject: |
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I understand a little better now, thank you.
Wouldn't you think that you could install more shims on one side, tighten everything down and slightly "twist" the front beam to give you slightly different caster angles ?
Again, with the numbers I've posted above, I don't know if installing shims would make things better or worse ?
I would think that bringing the lower beam "out" a bit with shims would increase my caster ?
Ideally would I want more caster or less caster (based on my specs) ?
Does anyone know what the specs should be on a '68 Beetle - or where I can find the specs ? I searched for them but didn't find them.
The car does still pull to the left a bit. I can certainly live with it but after rebuilding the whole front end and arguing with the mechanic, at this point I wouldn't have an issue with shimming the beam if it would make things better ?
Thanks again for everyone's opinion with this. And by the way, he was a big guy and I didn't get my money back but I know he was more pissed than I was 'cause his head got as red as a pomegranate when I called him at every turn. He started off telling me that everything was seized and he'd have to charge me at least another hour's worth of work to loosen it up ($79/hour). I told him "Bullsh*t, the entire front end was disassembled last week when I changed the torsion bar bushings and the upper ball joints. On top of that I knew someone was going to give me grief about 'seized parts' so I took a torch down there and free'd up then oiled the tie rods so you could turn 'em with two fingers."
It goes on but I felt like the proverbial woman as the mechanic told me lie after lie to get more money out of me. Unfortunately for him, I have a working knowledge of this stuff and I called him on every line he fed me - all in front of a waiting room full of people. At one point, one of the female customers waiting there whispered over to me, "I wonder if he's being honest with me ?"
Yeah, I wonder.
Thanks again fellas, it's nice to know there are such knowledgeable guys I can refer to on this form. |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:57 am Post subject: |
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The specs are available here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=206764
I posted them years ago with a very intensive explanation of what the angles are and what they do.
| Quote: |
Left Front Camber -.1 degree
L.F. Caster 1.1 degree
L.F. Toe 0.03"
Right Front Cam -.3 deg
R.F. Cast 2.3 deg
R.F. Toe 0.01"
Front Cross Camber .2 degrees
Cross Caster -1.1 degrees
Total Toe 0.04 degrees
Set Back .41 degrees |
Your camber is a bit on the low side, your cross caster is too high. Although not enough out of preferred spec to wear the tires, the low camber will transfer the weight of the car onto the smaller outer wheel bearing and slightly reduce straight line stability.
Cross camber and cross caster are used to compensate for road crown. Up here is Northern Ontario we have very high road crown. We have to set our cross camber at +.25 deg and cross caster at -.7 deg. This induces a built in pull to the left to fight the affects of road crown. Basically you are always driving along the side of a hill. As camber pulls to the high side and caster pulls to the low side with camber being a high tire wearing angle, not as high as toe, a higher cross caster than cross camber is preferred.
The way your car is set it will pull left.
This cross caster cross camber is only used on rear wheel drive vehicles. On front wheel drive the torque from the engine is applied differently to the front wheels and the need for cross camber/cross caster is eliminated. Camber is set equal on both sides and cross caster has little affect.
The further south you go in Canada and the US there is less need for high road crown as it is used to remove water from the road. The drier the climate the lower the road crown.
As your car has ball joint cams, there is a good possibility that he could have corrected your camber to a higher value and reduced the caster at the same time. Unfortunately you have not posted your "before" readings. It is possible that the end results are the closest he could get them.
Did he measure the rear wheels? They also can be contributing to the left pull. It is a bit hard to understand for some but the rear wheels actually "steer" the car. The front wheels are used for turning. An extreme example is where the left rear is set at 1 deg toe in and the right rear at 1 deg toe out. This would result in a high thrust angle and cause the rear end to go to the right. Assuming that the front wheels are held in the straight ahead position the car will go in circles to the left. Compensating by readjusting the front toe, turning the steering wheel, would result in severe dogtracking.
Try crossing your front tires left to right. Many times tires have internal damage {not visible even off the rim}, enough difference in diameter to aggravate the situation and worsen a pull. This can also occur with brand new tires. Many times crossing them will eliminate the pull or it will pull the other way.
Hope this helps.
Dan
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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Chopchop
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Dan, that helps a tonne. Thank you very much for explaining that to me.
After driving the car all weekend, I'm not really keen on how much it pulls to the left.
If I shimmed the bottom of the torsion tube out a bit, would this help to rectify my problem or would it make things worse ?
Based on my numbers, would it be wise to try to shim the passenger side of the beam out a little bit more than the driver's side or vice-versa ?
Thanks very much for your explanation of what's going on.
Dave |
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GatorJZ
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 473
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Alignment Specs / Caster Shims |
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| JerryMCarter1 wrote: |
Just remember this
The mechanic has a boss
The boss has a shop owner
The shop owner has to insure the shop
Get your information together and calm down and write a letter to the owner and imply that either you get a straight answer out of the boss or you will contact his insurer.
Then sit back and be assured that the smart ass mechanic has just had his ass handed to him.
Be cool Dude |
I was following you until you got to the insurer part. That makes no sense. |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Chopchop wrote: |
Yes Dan, that helps a tonne. Thank you very much for explaining that to me.
After driving the car all weekend, I'm not really keen on how much it pulls to the left.
If I shimmed the bottom of the torsion tube out a bit, would this help to rectify my problem or would it make things worse ?
Based on my numbers, would it be wise to try to shim the passenger side of the beam out a little bit more than the driver's side or vice-versa ?
Thanks very much for your explanation of what's going on.
Dave |
Shimming one side more than the other will only result in a gap between the tube and the frame head, due to the fact that the torsion assembly is too strong to twist. It will also change setback a bit. Any change in caster by applying unequal shims will be evenly distributed to both sides. Installing shims to the bottom beam will raise caster making it more stable at speed, increase steering wheel returnability and make it more difficult to turn at low speeds. It will not alter the left pull.
To reduce the pull the camber bushings need to be rotated to increase left cast or reduce right cast while maintaining camber. As soon as camber or caster are altered, toe goes out to lunch, therefore toe will need readjusting last.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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JerryMCarter1
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 6199
Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Alignment Specs / Caster Shims |
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| GatorJZ wrote: |
| JerryMCarter1 wrote: |
Just remember this
The mechanic has a boss
The boss has a shop owner
The shop owner has to insure the shop
Get your information together and calm down and write a letter to the owner and imply that either you get a straight answer out of the boss or you will contact his insurer.
Then sit back and be assured that the smart ass mechanic has just had his ass handed to him.
Be cool Dude |
I was following you until you got to the insurer part. That makes no sense. |
Gator,
Insurance adjustors,, ( insurance companies, ))) that insure the work of the workers against possible liability suits, love to here from customers whereby the work that is being produced could cost them a whole bunch of money. An alignment shop that lets a car go out the door that is so far out of alignment that it could be argued that this is why the car was in an accident ,,,,this could mean that some Vw owner would wind up owning the shop. In LA there are lawfirms that have 600 attornies that love to get their part of the action, believe it ,,
Grandpa here |
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Chopchop
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Ouch.
Well that wasn't what I was hoping to hear but I greatly appreciate you explaining it so clearly.
I guess I'd better just leave well enough alone. I was hoping that shimming the outer beam out a bit would help to rectify the caster issue but I guess I'm out of luck with this one.
Still, thank you very much for your in-depth explanations. I hope I can return the favour to you a some point.
Thanks again Dan and thanks to all who contributed to help me with my latest "dilemma"
Dave |
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Max Welton
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Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 11152
Location: Black Forest, CO
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Chopchop
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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It's a shame it has to be that way.
I like the part where he wrote :
With an antique car your best mechanic is YOU.
How true. |
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