Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Forum Index -> General/Chat Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BulletBus
Samba Member


Joined: August 17, 2005
Posts: 1276
Location: Panama City Beach
BulletBus is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole discussion is blastphemous to the real father of the volkswagen and should be ended immediately! Smile
_________________
53 Hatch Barndoor
_______________________________________
If it's not a bus, it's bus money waiting to happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
79SuperVert
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
79SuperVert is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engineers are not necessarily visionary but they are supremely practical and know just what is needed to achieve a particular goal. I think in that respect, Porsche was the consummate engineer. He knew what had to be done. He kept his head down and his eye on the ultimate goal. He steered clear of antagonizing people. By forming his own design studio he could work independently and avoid getting into arguments with others in the industry. He watched and waited and finally found the opportunity to achieve what others couldn't.

Ganz and Rumpler and others like them may have had the vision, but Porsche got it done. Maybe it's not a pretty story. But it's how life works.
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society

Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Fish
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2000
Posts: 5535
Location: OB. It's beside the point.
Fish is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a stretch, but ....

Ogg may have invented the wheel, but Grog had a hammer, chisel and the skill to get it done.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Prosit!

.·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·..><((((º>
.·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·..><((((º>

# 303 and #156

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sambafraser
Samba Member


Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Hel Finland
Sambafraser is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the 1930's weren't any different from today. Many people working very hard to come up with a solution to engineering problems in the wake of recession and skitzophrenic funding. Using the race stuff as a platform. I find the stuff happening today more interesting than something that could have happened 60 years ago.


Link
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
HUGO bOSS
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2008
Posts: 2602
Location: Madeira Island - Portugal
HUGO bOSS is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have read this topic last year and I buy the book.

Read first the "Birth of the Beetle" from Chris Barber... A fantastic book, but no mention to Ganz... As told before, never seen any refernce to him on another VW book...

After read this one, I read the Josef Ganz one... and what a surprise... A history to remember and to add to the VW one... Nordoff allmost recognize the work of that man to the real "birth of the beetle" in the 60s, before the dead of that enginner...

The true? Everyone now the histoty of the 2WW, or should now... And in that time the jews lost all they rights... A jewis family claims that one parent invented the Aspirin... but that is another history...
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=538182
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
LAGrunthaner
Samba Member


Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5501
Location: 1st Coast
LAGrunthaner is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread on Josef Ganz, for the book you mention HUGO bOSS, "Birth of the Beetle" from Chris Barber, @ over $400. for a copy I'll pass and wait for your summary Wink

http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Beetle-Development-Volkswagen-Porsche/dp/1859609597

HUGO bOSS wrote:
Have read this topic last year and I buy the book.

Read first the "Birth of the Beetle" from Chris Barber... A fantastic book, but no mention to Ganz... As told before, never seen any refernce to him on another VW book...

After read this one, I read the Josef Ganz one... and what a surprise... A history to remember and to add to the VW one... Nordoff allmost recognize the work of that man to the real "birth of the beetle" in the 60s, before the dead of that enginner...

The true? Everyone now the histoty of the 2WW, or should now... And in that time the jews lost all they rights... A jewis family claims that one parent invented the Aspirin... but that is another history...

_________________
American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters VW Logo
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote:
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
allsidius
Samba Member


Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 1475
Location: Norway
allsidius is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pdc wrote:
a book extremely well documented as the Die Kaefer Chronik of Bernd Wiersch (2005 ) completely ignores him, fact that is particularly curious considering that the book was published by Delius Klasing, the same publisher of Gute Fahrt ....


I beg to differ on the postulate that Die Kaefer Chronik is extremely well documented. In my view, it is a very poorly researched book, with tons of approximations, almost down to the level of "in the fifties the back window grew". Rarely have I been so disappointed with an expensive VW book, of which I have a considerable number. In a book aiming to be a bible to all VW-philes, you cannot skip the 60s in two pages, just because the 50s were more interesting. A lot of fantastic archive photographs, equally rubbish text.

On the other end of the scale, Birth of the Beetle by Chris Barber is a masterpiece, although it fails to mention Ganz. Disturbing to see that it is beeing offered at 400 USD and more, time to print a second edition?
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Dr OnHolliday
Samba Member


Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1215
Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
Dr OnHolliday is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until last year, I had my dad's 1950s -1970 Porsche Columbus (? If my memory's correct on name) magazines.

Each issue would have photos of historic Porsche designs and concept vehicles. Porsche had the direct predecessor of the flat 4 and swing arm transaxle in the mid-1920s, much of it paid for by NSU. NSU also had a complete concept car (late 20s?) that is recognizably a bug predecessor.
_________________
1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
paulymx
Samba Member


Joined: February 06, 2011
Posts: 14
Location: Perth, Western Australia
paulymx is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ganz book and the sensationalist media reaction to it obscure the fact that the Volkswagen was the result of a great many people's efforts. As Newton said "If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." Amongst the many direct contributors to the Volkswagen are Edward Rumpler, Josef Ganz, Paul Jaray, Hans & Erich Ledwinka and Erich Uberlacher, Ferdinand and Ferry Porsche - and ALL of their engineering teams. This is not to mention the other designers in Germany also working on 'people's cars' who influenced the VW development, such as Jorge Rasmussen of DKW & Framo, Carl Borgward of Goliath & Hansa (look at the Hansa 500 of 1933) and many others.
http://www.heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/volkswagen-world-beating-peoples-car.html
But none of this makes for a good (sensational) story. The 'Small Wonder' book idolises Porsche, notably ignoring Ledwinka and Ganz's contribution and has only a single disparaging remark about DKW - Germany's most successful budget car company. The Ganz book does the reverse, undercutting Porsche to assign credit to its protagonist hero. Both versions are biased and fail to do justice to the truth. The best book I've read on the subject is 'The Battle for the Beetle" by Karl Ludvigsen. The book puts both the development of the car in its appropriate historical context. http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Beetle-Ivan-Hirst/dp/...the+beetle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
79SuperVert
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
79SuperVert is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battle for the Beetle was a very interesting read. That and Chris Barber's are among the best of the historical Beetle books in my opinion.
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society

Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MDKG
Samba Member


Joined: October 16, 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: The Netherlands
MDKG is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might interest some of you:

https://nl-nl.facebook.com/josefganz/wall?filter=1

There will be a revised edition of the book with changes in both text and photos and published by a new publisher with a different title and cover design.

This new edition will be presented June 1st at the Louwman Museum (voted best car museum in the world last year) in The Netherlands together with the reveal of a unique and unrestored Rapid "Swiss Volkswagen" made by Ganz. Also this June 1st there will be a pre67 VW show at the Louwman museum with VWs from 1938 (the VW38 from the Grundmans will be there) up till 1967: one of each year and a dozen coachbuild like Rometsch, Dannerhauer&Stauss, Denzel, Enzmann, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Blue Baron
VW Aficionado


Joined: June 16, 2006
Posts: 23748
Location: Southeast USA
Blue Baron is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally had the opportunity to read this book after receiving it as a surprise Christmas gift. (Thanks Pogel!) I would weight it as 80% factual and well researched; 10% based on the author's interpretation of the facts; and 10% what I would describe as fuzzy math. The author also suffers from guilt by omission, skirting topics that would tend not to bolster his conclusions.

Author Schilperoord claims that Ganz was the creator of the Volkswagen, and that all subsequent cars sharing engineering features of Ganz's May Bug were descendants of it. Repeating it over and over does not make it true. I would agree that Ganz is the spiritual father of the VW, and a true champion of the VW-type car, but the May Bug was a tiny vehicle, more like a cyclecar than a true automobile. It did have a brilliantly engineered drivetrain, but its simple construction in no way matched the sophistication of the ultimate VW.

Author Schilperoord repeats several times Ganz's formula of backbone chassis, independent suspension, rear engine and streamlining, but there is no mention of Porsche's brilliant torsion bar suspension, which is just as essential an ingredient of the ultimate Volkswagen as any other. It's this feature that made the Volkswagen ride so well and made it so incredibly durable. Ganz's May Bug had a front suspension consisting of two fragile leaf springs.

Schilperoord also trods the well-worn path that the Volkswagen project was a giant Nazi swindle, in this case to raise funds for the production of military vehicles. The Nazi's crimes speak for themselves, but in the case of the KdF Savers it has been documented that the Germans, expecting a short war, deposited the funds in The Bank of the German Workers in Berlin, which was captured by the invading Russians.

At any rate, I enjoyed the book and recommend it to anyone interested in the history of the VW-type vehicle. You'll read and learn about cars you never knew existed.
_________________
We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.

Heinz Nordhoff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bruce
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17273
Location: Left coast, Canada
Bruce is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too, just finished reading this book.
It is a fascinating account of the history of the German auto industry between the wars. But should Joseph Ganz be credited for the VW Beetle? No way.

As I read it, I was thinking that soon the author would get to the point where he would start laying out all the evidence pointing to Ganz being involved with, or the inspiration for the VW, but it never came. There's nothing in the book to suggest Ganz had anything to do with the VW.
The author constantly labels every auto project Ganz worked on as the Volkswagen. He overuses this word to try to make his point. But when you read all the direct quotes, and look at the photos of the magazine articles of the day, not once did Joseph Ganz call his cars "volkswagen". Thus in my mind it is a complete fabrication by the author.
Here's the Mai Kafer Ganz designed and built:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What you can't tell from this side view is that this car is very narrow. The front wheels are barely 1m apart. This is about 2' narrower a Beetle. Notice where he's sitting. A second person would be very cozy in there. Where are you going to put your bag of groceries?

There are many features of the VW Beetle that Ganz was highly opposed to. A roof for one. Adds too much weight. Steel body? Too heavy. 4 cylinders; twice too many. His concept of a volkswagen was a car that weighed only 300kg and could only transport 2 people.

His Mai Kafer above was powered by a 2 stroke, 2 cylinder engine mounted ahead of the rear swing axles, attached directly to the gearbox, with chain drive to the rear axle. Then the author goes on to say that because the VW Beetle also has swing axle, it must be inspired by Ganz. Not so. The Beetle has swing axle because it's not possible to build a car with a solid axle that has the engine and trans all in one package. Think about it, you hit a bump and the whole engine and trans has to bounce around? Because of this, independent rear suspension was a requirement. And swing axles is the way all the auto makers at the time did IRS.
_________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote:
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Blue Baron
VW Aficionado


Joined: June 16, 2006
Posts: 23748
Location: Southeast USA
Blue Baron is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The author also describes the Standard Superior (based on the May Bug) as a great success, even though production was only about 1,200 cars in two years.

It's also interesting that Ganz stuck to his May Bug formula right to the very end, building a prototype in the late 1940s that was virtually identical.

Ganz's explanation for creating such a simple "Volkswagen" was that the German worker couldn't afford anything better. In contrast, the Feuhrer wanted the German "Volk" to have an actual, substantial automobile. And with the rising prosperity of the German worker coupled with cost savings from mass production on a utopian scale, plus the elimination of all profits (it was state run), the KdF car could have been sold very cheaply.

The author also claims that Porsche was selected because he was the only independent engineer who could do the job who wasn't Jewish. With all due respect to Rumpler, Ganz, Jaray and others, Porsche and his design team were the only engineers who could have come up with the total package that was the ultimate Volkswagen.

It is criminal what happened to the Jewish engineers in Germany and they deserve all the credit due to them, but the VW as we know it was Porsche's creation.
_________________
We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.

Heinz Nordhoff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33875
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

90% of the controversy would never have happened if not for the author's use of the capital "V" in Volkswagen.

Several, including Hitler, Porsche, Ganz and others all wanted to build a car for the common German citizen, or a "volkswagen." None can claim sole originality for such an idea.

But the Volkswagen, of a substantially different design (notwithstanding the silly repetition of the description of both cars as "swing axle, independent suspension, rear engined" and such) was a particular example of such cars, but one that was much more refined in terms of manufacturability, marketing, funding, and engineering thoroughness. Without these aspects of Porsche's design, even the push of funding and support from the Nazis would not have made it a success.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33875
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen Reply with quote

I always thought the Nelson book "Small Wonder" left out Ganz completely. It certainly gives the company view from VW about how the design came about from Porsche and no one else. VW was probably sensitive at the time about giving any hint that there were more potential patent challenges possible against it. Nothing about Ganz in the sources listed at the end, and although there is no index, I didn't remember seeing any mention anywhere.

But reading it once again this week, I noticed a footnote at the end of Chapter 1 talking about the word Volksauto and its early use by Zünddapp (bold emphasis added) around 1930:

Quote:
The word Volksauto had already been used a great deal in the Germany of the 1920s and, indeed, a car called the Bergmann Volksauto had even appeared on the market in 1904. The impetus given Volksauto idea in the 1920s can above all be credited to Motorkritik and its editor, Ganz.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26740
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen Reply with quote

Over the years we have seen many "ancestors" of the vw.
I often wonder who designed what parts of it. It's a shame to never know who to admire or, in some cases, curse. Razz
Backbone frame and streamlined body were popular ideas. Integrating controls into the backbone was a necessity of cable brakes. The unit chassis may be traceable to a requirement of Hitler.

I think the torsion bar/trailing arm design is all Porsche, with some minor inspiration from Tatra. Many say it was the key to success, but actually, I don't think so. I think more reasonable engineers would have used a different system, which could have cost a lot less to make, and work as well.
Porsche spent much work and time trying to prove to the world his torsion bar suspension designs were better. Nearly everything he built he insisted on trying it. It may have been a hindrance. I love it, but lets be realistic, it's not better, but you know who to admire/blame Wink

I would like to know who to blame for affixing the flywheel with dowels
Should be a special level of hell for that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Cusser
Samba Member


Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31266
Location: Hot Arizona
Cusser is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen Reply with quote

Amazon Prime has a documentary "Ganz: how I lost my Beetle"

https://www.amazon.com/Ganz-How-Lost-My-Beetle/dp/B07TKZGFYC
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33875
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen Reply with quote

He was royally screwed for sure (and by more than just the VW folks), and I'll watch this soon.

But sorry, he was not "the visionary behind one of the world's most adored cars."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22566
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen Reply with quote

It’s not his car because the auto industry was not, and is still not, a design engineering business. It’s a manufacturing engineering business.

You have to have the vision, then the real work begins. Just ask musk
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> General/Chat All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.