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1.8T conversion details?
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loogy wrote:


......

(1995 VR6 water pump pulley - to eliminate the power steering pump - and a 2004 Golf 1.8T cooling hose flange/distribution pipe - to make hose routing easier).

I have decided that the ECU and new power and fuel pump relays will be placed to the right and forward of the engine compartment in a pocket made specifically for them.

Almost exactly a year ago, I spent a good part of my Thanksgiving vacation creating some wiring interface charts and diagrams. I started out by identifying all of the ECU pins followed by identifying all of the pertinent wires that need to be interfaced with the Vanagon wiring. I created a wiring diagrams that will help me interface the power supply relay and the fuel pump relay to the Audi and Vanagon wiring.



Those charts are an awesome contribution Loogy. Tracing diagrams is a laborious task.

Good to know the VR coolant pump pulley trick works on the 1.8T (makes sense) This is what I did too.

Not sure if this would apply to the coolant flange you're using, but for the transition to heater hose off the coolant flange, I found a molded hose to reduce from larger size to 5/8". If need be I could scare up the PN.

Looking up at transition hose:

http://8746846019947848741-a-1802744773732722657-s...edirects=0


Neil.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackDogVan wrote:
Looking forward to your take on this Chris. Whats the story with the mexican bellhouding btw? Angle? Clutch?


I believe that the Mexican Bus belhousing positions the engine at 15º. The flywheel is a single mass TDI with a VR6 Pressure plate. Supposedly that combo is good for 350-400 ft lbs of torque.

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Not sure if this would apply to the coolant flange you're using, but for the transition to heater hose off the coolant flange, I found a molded hose to reduce from larger size to 5/8". If need be I could scare up the PN.

Looking up at transition hose:

http://8746846019947848741-a-1802744773732722657-s...edirects=0


Neil.


Thanks, Neil, that's awesome! Here is a picture of the coolant flange that I am planning on using.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loogy,
you might want to make a foot note to assure others don't get the wrong relay,
as some relays switch BETWEEN 87 & 87a
instead of COMBINING 87 & 87a
which would create a weird non-running or bad running symptoms
your use of both 87/87a terminals does minimize the engine harness relays over mine, where I have a seperate relay for Ignition coil & fuel pump

your Pin out is definately a good help to use in conjunction with the syr.edu sourced version.

loogy wrote:
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, good point. The relays that I am using are Bosch 40A SPST five terminal relays. This means that numbers 87 and 87a are both supplied 12v power at the same time when the relay is activated.

Yes, I am trying to keep things as simple as possible yet at the same time, make the installation as clean as possible. I was going to use the existing AEB relays and fuse panel, but I just felt that I could build a cleaner system.

The syr.edu site was my jumping off point (thanks to D Clymer for the link), but since I am the type that has to know all of the "why"s in life and not just the "how"s, I went ahead and took the time to figure out exactly what each and every circuit does, why it was needed and how to integrate it into the Vanagon (which of course is not included on that site). The syr.edu site gave me huge head start though.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speaking of relays....

Haven't read all the posts here, but in some cases (as per stock) one should use a relay with some kind of surge protection.

I gather that when shutting the engine down, there's potential for a surge to go back to the ECU or other sensitive component.

Info on relays here: http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm Part way down page there's a note on quenching diodes (the part shunted in parallel on coil in pic)

Example of relay type I mean (what I used for ECU power relay. Stock relay IIRC):

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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50º ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Classicvibe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread may be my new favorite. Any 1.8T updates Chris?

Still have those Porsche Lobsters by the way? I am back on that kick again, trying to get some style to that rig...18" Lobsters are a freaking hens-tooth these days...
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Last edited by Classicvibe on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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fatgermanparts
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:01 pm    Post subject: 1.8t conversion details Reply with quote

check with vwhead-he can do it all , for the do it your selfer or turnkey.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8t conversion details Reply with quote

fatgermanparts wrote:
check with vwhead-he can do it all , for the do it your selfer or turnkey.

What he said! Hows thins friend Smile
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumor has it that VWhead is bringing a DIY engine mounting system to Syncrofest for people to look at.
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VWhead
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes FatGermanParts(Pops) and I will have a 1.8T mounting system for the DIY to see at Syncrofest on Saturday......... or your all welcome to see it in action in the Single Cab I will be bringing.If I can get all the little 1.8T Details done Mr. FatGermanParts will be driving his 1.8T 85' Rat Van.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWhead wrote:
Yes FatGermanParts(Pops) and I will have a 1.8T mounting system for the DIY to see at Syncrofest on Saturday......... or your all welcome to see it in action in the Single Cab I will be bringing.If I can get all the little 1.8T Details done Mr. FatGermanParts will be driving his 1.8T 85' Rat Van.

Sweet!!!!!
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alrighty then! One year and four months after my last post? Man, it's really hard getting projects like this done these days. But hey, progress is progress, right?

Since I last posted, I have made some changes to my plan. The first set of changes were to the wiring and are somewhat minor. These changes were implemented in order to simplify the project and to make future maintenance as easy as possible. I'm actually glad that the project has taken this amount of time to get this far because I feel that some of the changes will make for a much better, cleaner installation.

First up is the changes that I made to my wiring charts and schematics. I decided to eliminate the Audi Leak Detection/Evap system and simply adapt the existing Vanagon tank Evap system instead. I also changed the way that I structured the charts and schematics to make it easier for me to remember what is going on. Because this is taking me so long, I found out that I was forgetting some of the plan and my previous charts were not as clear to me as the once were. Each time went to work on the project, I was spending so much time refreshing my memory that it was easier to come up with a better plan than to keep pounding my head against the wall trying to remember why I did what I did. As a result of both of the above concerns, I redid the charts and schematic to what you see below.

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I had originally planned to place the ECU in its own little spot within the raised deck structure, but the more that I looked at it, I realized that the ECU, Power Supply Relay, Fuel Pump Relay and the AUX Fuse Black could all be positioned together under the rear seat. Yeah, the original Audi wiring harness is long enough to allow this.
So I stripped the harness of all the unnecessary wires, added wires that will connect from the FP Relay, PS Relay and/or the ECU to the Vanagon wiring harness, wired in the Diaganostic Port and placed it all in a neat box with a lid. Then I wrapped up the "new" harness. The only connections left o make will be the interface with the raw wires to the Vanagon wiring. This will be done through a new sealed connector so that the entire harness can be removed if necessary. Here are some pictures of the final result. The box looks kind of huge in the photos, but it's actually about 10x7x4.

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This next change is pretty major. I had originally planned to use the Mexican/Brazilian Bus bellhousing. It has the correct bolt patterns and engine orientation, but what I didn't realize, until I had already purchased one, is that it is roughly 60mm longer than a WBX bellhousing. If we use the throwout cross shaft as a centerline, this additional length is split between that centerline to the gearbox side as well as to the clutch side. This means that it's not just a simple task of shortening the clutch side to make it work properly. This bellhousing would have to be shortened both front and rear in order to make it work with the WBX input shaft and the G60/TDI single mass flywheel. Eurospec provides a custom flywheel and input shaft to make the system work, but I already have the G60/TDI flywheel and I don't have the money to purchase a new flywheel and input shaft. I also don't have the money for a Kennedy (or similar) adapter. My solution is pretty unorthodox, but I am confident that it will work. If it doesn't, live and learn!

The plan - Use a Vanagon diesel bellhousing and re-clock it on the gearbox from a 50º engine mounting angle to one that positions the engine closer to 15º. I say "closer to 15º" because when I leveled the engine (via the motor mounts and positioned the top bits of the engine at their lowest possible height), the results didn't quite equate to a 15º mounting angle, but it doesn't really matter because the oil pan/oil pick-up are still in the correct position to function properly.

Below is the adapter plate that I made to re-clock the bellhousing on the gearbox. Not shown in the photos are the Time-serts that were installed into the 7075-T6 aluminum plate. I'm not a huge fan of threading directly into aluminum if it can be helped, especially when the plate is only 9.5mm thick. Some of you may be thinking that 9.5mm is awfully thin, but I measured the amount of thread engagement that the original belhousing fasteners have into the magnesium gearbox and it's only about 11mm worth. My thinking is that with the Time-serts, 9.5mm worth of thread engagement should be just fine. I also shimmed the bolts that are being used so that they use up every bit of the threads.

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Moving the bellhousing away from the gearbox by 9.5mm meant that now the clutch disk would make 9.5mm less spline engagement with the input shaft. I measured the amount of spline engagement in three places on the input shaft; between the splined sleeve and the mainshaft, between the splined sleeve and the input shaft and between the splined hub of the clutch disk and the input shaft. I found that the area that had the most amount of spline engagement among those three points is at the splined sleeve and the main shaft...by a pretty large margin. This means that this area can afford to lose a small amount of spline engagement and still have more engagement than the other two places mentioned. The decision was made to space the input shaft forward by 9.5mm. Doing this still left the margin of engagement much great than either of the two other engagement points, so I'm not really all that worried about it.

To move the input shaft forward, I found that two bolts butted head to head spaced the threaded sections exactly 9.5mm apart. Combine that with a 9.5mm sleeve that is installed in conjunction with the original splined sleeve and the deal was done.

The WBX input shaft has a 10mm longer snout than the diesel version, so in order to make it all work, I had to shorten the snout appropriately. Photos show the input shaft adapters and the shortened snout. The one photo shows the amount of snout engagement into the pilot bearing. Perfect!

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As a result of re-clocking the diesel bellhousing, no the clutch slave is oriented differently. Being slightly concerned about being able to bleed it properly, I decided to rotate it 90º so that the bleed screw is at the highest point. Doing this caused the mounting holes to be positioned in such a way the I had to make some threaded bungs and weld them into slots that I cut into the slave bracket.
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http://images61.fotki.com/v373/photos/1/545581/9284460/IMG_0277-vi.jpg[/img]
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This particular engine was design to be longitudinally mounted. As a result, there is an idler pulley that also mounts the fan clutch for the radiator. I had to remove the remains of the fan clutch and shorten the idler pulley snout. While I was at it, I machined a couple of flats into the hub to make tightening the hub to the pulley mount a little easier.

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My original plan was to use a 2004 Golf 1.8T cooling hose flange/distribution pipe thinking that it would make my hose routing easier. However, I have since decided to use the original 1998 Audi 1.8T cooling flange/distribution pipe. One of my original concerns with the Audi distribution pipe was the proprietary heater feed hose connection. This hose points in a direction that isn't convenient for my needs (and is held in that orientation via tabs and slots that are molded into the spigot and port) and it uses a special port, spigot and clip arrangement that a normal heater hose won't connect to it without an adapter...or will it?

Here is what I did. I first removed the crimped band off of the port. This left me with a 3/4" barbed elbow that fits onto the Audi distribution pipe. In order to correct the orientation of the elbow, I used a file to remove the tabs on the spigot area. This allows me to orient the hose in whatever direction I need.

Using Gates hose # 18078 (3/4" to 5/8" with a 90º elbow at the 3/4" end, 39" long - trim to fit), I will able to adapt this whole thing to the Vanagon heater system.

The heater return system on the AEB has a similar proprietary fitting, but this time it was on a steel tube. The solution was to remove just the flanged section of the lip on the tube leaving just the band that surrounds the main tube. Leaving this band in place provides a shoulder to keep the hose in place.

This connection will be adapted to the Vanagon heater section using Gates hose # 18083 (3/4" to 5/8" straight 36" long - trim to fit).

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And lastly, for today, the decision was made to keep the 1998 Audi AEB coolant return (to the radiator) circuit intact as it came from the factory up to the point of the main coolant return hose. I had planned on cutting up the steel tube and all of it's fittings to reconfigure them. However, it seems that the simplest method of connecting this particular 1.8T coolant return circuit to the 1984 Vanagon is to use Gates hose # 22187 (1.25” ID. Fits GM fullsize trucks, Suburbans and Blazers upper rad. hose with 5.7 ltr engine from 1989-1991). Cut to fit!
It's a bit short, so a straight section of 1.25" hose will be added using a Jags That Run splicer.

The coolant feed (to the radiator) hose is Gates hose # 22129 (1.25” ID. GM, Hummer Isuzu, Kia Hyundai, Mopar. Most common listing = 1995-2000 Mopar Stratus/Breeze upper hose and 2001-2006 Hyundai Elantra). Cut to fit! Since the feed circuit needs a nipple to run a hose to the coolant bottle, a Jags That Run adapter T was used (1.25" to 5/8").

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So that concludes today’s episode. Please tune in next year when……Just kidding! I really need to get this finished since I blew up the clutch in the van. I can’t justify spending the time and money to fix the clutch when I’m so close to having the 1.8T conversion ready. There isn’t too much more to do before the motor has to be installed in order to finish certain things like the intercooler, exhaust and motor mount.
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Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Chris. You have really been thinking through the details. I like what I see. The clocked bellhousing follows sound engineering principles as far as all the fasteners are concerned. It should work very well.

See you tomorrow at Triple X?

David
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mattography
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really love your attention to detail. Your bell housing solution is fantastic too.

Are you two (David and Chris) going to have your vanagons at xxx tomorrow?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's some good work Chris. Clever. Please don't wait another year to post again.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good Chris Exclamation
Nice attention to details.
From what I have seen done with motor, it has moved up a few notches in the conversion hierarchy since your last post.
And will surely keep moving up, now that people will see this and the other build threads.
Keep us posted please.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattography wrote:
I really love your attention to detail. Your bell housing solution is fantastic too.

Are you two (David and Chris) going to have your vanagons at xxx tomorrow?


Yup, I'll be there at about 11:30 with the Subaru 5MT Vanagon. Are you going to make it?

D
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sweet work !
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:

Yup, I'll be there at about 11:30 with the Subaru 5MT Vanagon. Are you going to make it?

D


I will be there between 10:00 and 11:30 hope Ill catch you. Would really like to see your conversion.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys! Yeah, it's definitely the details that tend to hang me up with these types of products, but I really want to have a clean, simple, easy to maintain conversion. In my mind, it's the details that will allow me to accomplish this.
Don't worry, you won't have to wait another year for more updates. I'm too close to getting it finished for that. The hard bits are done and the rest is all planned and fairly easy.

XXX - I am going to try to make it for a little bit, but I have a bunch of family things to take care of today and I'm not sure how it will all play out yet.
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