| Author |
Message |
avus
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2005
Posts: 268
Location: Drain, Oregon
|
 Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: 36 hp Challenge rules questions |
 |
|
1. Stone Stock: Distributor--0 231 129 019 centrifugal dist. legal? If 12v conversion is legal, any Bosch coil? 28pci carb what diameter choke(s) are legal? Internals: are flycut heads, decked cases, multi-angle valve seats etc. "modifications" or repairs? Despite no impound and teardown policy, I still want to honor the spirit of the Challenge.
2. The modified engine class rules seem more clear-cut, but are dual 40 mm Kadrons pre-65 legal?
I have a pile of 36 cores in my shop, and hope to sort out something to bring to World of Speed next year. I learned this year that there is a remarkable group of enthusiastic and talented people engaged in this Challenge. It was a pleasure meeting all of you. Hope to see you on the Salt.
Jerry |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Roadcow
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 1012
Location: Stockton, Ca. area
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Jerry! Loved your Trike! Took loads of pictures of it. I think your mods are allowed ( flycutting???) and am sure that Burly will chime in. I used an 010 and think all of the stock competitors to date have. Beaver geezers had a 24 mm choke I think I had a 22.5. Can't wait to see what you put together.
Regards,
Britt
_________________
71 Westy Roadcow
67 Panel
63 Bug
66 Ghia Bonneville 2014
74 Ghia Vert
69 Bonneville Ghia 150 in Chico
69 Bonneville Ghia in Ireland
80 Cabby 2.1 16v
98 Passat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
avus
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2005
Posts: 268
Location: Drain, Oregon
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Roadcow wrote: |
Hi Jerry! Loved your Trike! Took loads of pictures of it. I think your mods are allowed ( flycutting???) and am sure that Burly will chime in. I used an 010 and think all of the stock competitors to date have. Beaver geezers had a 24 mm choke I think I had a 22.5. Can't wait to see what you put together.
Regards,
Britt |
Thanks Britt,
I was hoping the SS rules left room for a little tweakage. Looks like fun. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Unkl Ian
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: 36 hp Challenge rules questions |
|
|
| avus wrote: |
1. Stone Stock: Distributor--0 231 129 019 centrifugal dist. legal? If 12v conversion is legal, any Bosch coil? 28pci carb what diameter choke(s) are legal? Internals: are flycut heads, decked cases, multi-angle valve seats etc. "modifications" or repairs? Despite no impound and teardown policy, I still want to honor the spirit of the Challenge.
|
Email Burly for confirmation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
36hplandspeedracer
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Ivins, Utah
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello again Jerry
I also join in Britts praise of your 36hp Trike. I hope photos of it make it to publication in one or more VW mags. It deserves it.
Yes on the 019 distributor, any Bosch Blue of black VW coil, and the larger dealer available 28 PCI "choke" are all O.K. for SS or Stone Stock, as is blueprinting and balancing, 3 angle valve seats and full flow oil systems. The first discreetly help performance and were routine upgrades to "stock" 36hp motors while the later add reliability more than speed.
No on Kadrons. They are post 65 and would put any 36hp car into NA36 or challenging only for the "1" Club.
Which brings me to my question to you. When we bid goodby, I was left with the impression you were going to return with a Judson 36 in your trike to establish a trike category. Are you now thinking "bug"?
Burly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
36hplandspeedracer
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Ivins, Utah
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jerry, I had one more thought. Do not forget the SSS or Super Stock Single category for building a truly hi-performance stock type engine. The new record was set this year at 91 mph using a single modified 28PCI carb.
We like to think of it as a NASCAR restrictor plate class. More skills oriented with only minor investment required.
Just an idea!
Burly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TomSimon
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2004
Posts: 751
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Roadcow wrote: |
| Hi Jerry! Loved your Trike! Took loads of pictures of it. |
X2! Your trike is an awesome display of what a retro-trike should be. I am forwarding some pics to a couple guys in the mag business that I know... Dean sumpthin' and RK what-his-name...  they are always on the lookout for quality, and your trike is it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Das Dragon
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2000
Posts: 2474
Location: AZ.
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tom Simon wrote: |
| Roadcow wrote: |
| Hi Jerry! Loved your Trike! Took loads of pictures of it. |
X2! Your trike is an awesome display of what a retro-trike should be. I am forwarding some pics to a couple guys in the mag business that I know... Dean sumpthin' and RK what-his-name... they are always on the lookout for quality, and your trike is it! |
X2 on the trike!
_________________
Rest In Peace HamburgerBrad, we will never forget you!
_________________________________________________________
DB3 said:
"Awesome!!!
*********'s constant over-estimation of his own importance never ceases to amaze me."
With *****, "Bullshit Happens"! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WickedWagens
Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004
Posts: 190
Location: Carson City, NV
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here is a pic so others can see what a great job you did.
So in stone stock can compression be adjusted? The rules still seem kind of vague. Can you do internal modifications such as counterbalancing the crank etc as long as you don't exceed 1192cc and still use the required parts?
_________________
1968 Ghia Land Speed Car
G/CFALT 106.643 MPH
G/CGALT 113.131 MPH
G/CBGALT 134.606 MPH
G/CBFALT 146.715 MPH
G/CBGC 158.242 MPH
H/CPRO 93.383 MPH
H/CBGC 94.33 MPH
H/CBGALT 101.282 MPH
H/CBFALT 120.591 MPH |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
36hplandspeedracer
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Ivins, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wicked Wagen
Stone Stock (SS) should not have the compression raised. Nor should the crank be counterbalanced(think stock versus modified!).
Engine balancing is acceptable because that is just refining what is already their and blueprinting the motor the same, fundamentally equalizing the compression for best Stock performance. The simple guidelines of the Challenge do not go into defining words since all of this is what we call "the Spirit of the Challenge", just being honest with yourself and your fellow competitors.
Since the beginning of the 36hp Challenge five years ago, fun and self satisfaction has been the object with maybe a little recognition thrown in for good measure. Setting records is only a byproduct so why go outside the envelope.
Join us and enjoy...................
Burly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
avus
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2005
Posts: 268
Location: Drain, Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
Hello again Jerry
I also join in Britts praise of your 36hp Trike. I hope photos of it make it to publication in one or more VW mags. It deserves it.
Yes on the 019 distributor, any Bosch Blue of black VW coil, and the larger dealer available 28 PCI "choke" are all O.K. for SS or Stone Stock, as is blueprinting and balancing, 3 angle valve seats and full flow oil systems. The first discreetly help performance and were routine upgrades to "stock" 36hp motors while the later add reliability more than speed.
No on Kadrons. They are post 65 and would put any 36hp car into NA36 or challenging only for the "1" Club.
Which brings me to my question to you. When we bid goodby, I was left with the impression you were going to return with a Judson 36 in your trike to establish a trike category. Are you now thinking "bug"?
Burly |
Thanks Burly,
That clears things up. I'm still planning to Judson the trike, but having second thoughts about racing it. Safety issues are my main concern. I think a car would be safer, and have more future possibility as a racer. I'm pretty wishy-washy though, we'll see what happens. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
avus
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2005
Posts: 268
Location: Drain, Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
Jerry, I had one more thought. Do not forget the SSS or Super Stock Single category for building a truly hi-performance stock type engine. The new record was set this year at 91 mph using a single modified 28PCI carb.
We like to think of it as a NASCAR restrictor plate class. More skills oriented with only minor investment required.
Just an idea!
Burly |
Wow, that sounds like a pretty strong record! Who and where? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WickedWagens
Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004
Posts: 190
Location: Carson City, NV
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
The simple guidelines of the Challenge do not go into defining words since all of this is what we call "the Spirit of the Challenge", just being honest with yourself and your fellow competitors.
Setting records is only a byproduct so why go outside the envelope. |
Don't take this wrong, but isn't setting records the "spirit" of land speed racing. Thats all that anyone talks about, the records that were broken. Those are your goals to beat, what you are shooting for. I am asking these questions because I am looking at building a car to go after a record. It just seems like if you can't do anything to the motor there is no room for growth in the class. I am just talking about just doing stuff to make the engine more efficient, cutting friction, trying to get the most out of a stock 36hp with stock displacement, stock carb and air cleaner, stock exhaust, basically stock motor just with a little room to play and let people try to push the limits with out getting away from all stock parts. No cam changes, ratio rockers, or anything not stock. That's what I thought the stone stock class was as compared to the super stock class where you can change displacement among other things.
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
Mark
_________________
1968 Ghia Land Speed Car
G/CFALT 106.643 MPH
G/CGALT 113.131 MPH
G/CBGALT 134.606 MPH
G/CBFALT 146.715 MPH
G/CBGC 158.242 MPH
H/CPRO 93.383 MPH
H/CBGC 94.33 MPH
H/CBGALT 101.282 MPH
H/CBFALT 120.591 MPH |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roadcow
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 1012
Location: Stockton, Ca. area
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| WickedWagens wrote: |
| 36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
The simple guidelines of the Challenge do not go into defining words since all of this is what we call "the Spirit of the Challenge", just being honest with yourself and your fellow competitors.
Setting records is only a byproduct so why go outside the envelope. |
Don't take this wrong, but isn't setting records the "spirit" of land speed racing. Thats all that anyone talks about, the records that were broken. Those are your goals to beat, what you are shooting for. I am asking these questions because I am looking at building a car to go after a record. It just seems like if you can't do anything to the motor there is no room for growth in the class. I am just talking about just doing stuff to make the engine more efficient, cutting friction, trying to get the most out of a stock 36hp with stock displacement, stock carb and air cleaner, stock exhaust, basically stock motor just with a little room to play and let people try to push the limits with out getting away from all stock parts. No cam changes, ratio rockers, or anything not stock. That's what I thought the stone stock class was as compared to the super stock class where you can change displacement among other things.
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
Mark |
Hey Mark,
You saw me in the 74 Green Bug run 64 mph against a 58 Bug which set the record at 73 about mph. Same engines they had the better car. I'd put most of my attention towards the car if you think there's not much room for improvement in the Stock engine. I can tell you that the 58 rolled much easier than the 74, probably due to far better prep. Can't wait to see what you bring to the track! I was in your neck of the woods tonight up at Tahoe.
_________________
71 Westy Roadcow
67 Panel
63 Bug
66 Ghia Bonneville 2014
74 Ghia Vert
69 Bonneville Ghia 150 in Chico
69 Bonneville Ghia in Ireland
80 Cabby 2.1 16v
98 Passat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
36hplandspeedracer
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Ivins, Utah
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Britt pretty well nailed it. Preporation is the key, lets call it "blueprinting" the whole car. The old record the Beaver Geezers broke was 73.006 mph and they first beat it by .002 moh and then set the new record at 73.492 mph, less than one half mile per hour higher. Thats tough ! ! !
I agree, as folks refine the process, this will become the hardest 36hp record to break since it has to have a top-out at some place. I wonder where that is since the car was only designed to go 68 miles per hour in the first place. The Beaver Geezers will probably return but in a different category and maybe even with a different type of VW. We will just have to wait and see.
Going beyond SS is what the Super Stock Single (SSS) category is for. It allows wild mods within the stock confines of a 36. Maybe you might want to head for the SSS since it is so much more liberal in what you can do and sounds more fitting for your goals.
The record was set at 90.203 mph at Maxton in the Spring. Like the SS and DSS records, we were worried that records set at low altitude would be tough to break at Bonnevilles high altitude. The three new 36hp Challenge records set at World of Speed let us know it's the builder that makes the difference more that the altitude.
Avus, I understand your concerns, but damn, that is one fine trike! Whichever category you choose, it will be fun to have you join us again next year.
2010 is looking like a great year for 36hp Challenge racing. But 09 is not over yet and Bruce Cook will be attempting to get his DSS record back from Blackline in a couple of weeks at Maxton. We wish him well and will let folks know how he does.
Burly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
