| Counterweighted cranks |
| NO stock is fine for 5000 rpm |
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21% |
[ 7 ] |
| YES Always go counterweighted |
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78% |
[ 25 ] |
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| Total Votes : 32 |
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| Author |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: |
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To sum it up: yes you can use a stock crank, but if you'll be building an engine there's no good reason not to use a c/w crank.
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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go get some old editions of hot VW or sandrail from the 1970's and 1980's. There were thousands of sand rails using stock cranks to play. Re-read his original post as to what he intends to do with it.
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jfats808
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007
Posts: 5022
Location: oahu hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I havent been in the vw scene for a very long time but after doing research, i understood that a c/w balanced crank is the basis for all motors. Unless you are staying w/ a basically stock 1600, intend to use the parts you already have,watching a budget, and dont plan on getting into too much of a performance motor; than by all means use what you have. I personally only like to do things once. -Jon |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Doesn't matter how high over 4500 you rev it, how many miles or hours you drove it like that, it's still a ticking time bomb. Always will be unless 'properly' modified. |
there was also a question as to head temps.
The answer to the time bomb - any engine at that rpm can scatter. But ticking no. Not if you balance it. However the engine life is about 15,000 miles to 20,000 miles between rebuilds assuming you make 5 to 6 trips a year that way. Keep it to 60 - 65 and they last a lot longer. My last engine was dead stock because I got tired of cracked cases, pulled studs etc. Ask Jake on a T4 what he gets on the FP 914. He is probably turning up to 9,500+ rpm for 20 - 30 minutes at a time. He has to be because he is winning. We had to turn 8K - 9K in FP 25 years ago to bring home trophies so he has to be doing better today.
re head temps - stock dog house shroud, fan (balanced) and cooler but you are asking me to remember what the cyl head gauge was reading 30 years ago. My recollection was that it used to run about 350 - 375 on those runs. An extended oil sump was mandatory as oil temps would be unsustainable otherwise and I believe that I was using 50 wt oil.
I don't recommend driving a bus at that speed but I was 30ish and we would go river running on the weekends. Travel out Fri nite in the cool and back Sun nite in the cool. The original question was did he need a counter weighted crank to turn an occasional 5,000 rpm. My humble opinion stands as no. If he plans to turn 6,000+ on a T1 yes. Incidently - I set the redline on the new T4 1977 bus at 4500 rpm. Parts aren't available as easily or as cheaply as they were in the 70's and 80's.
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Doesn't matter how high over 4500 you rev it, how many miles or hours you drove it like that, it's still a ticking time bomb. Always will be unless 'properly' modified. |
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Hotrodvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
maybe, but you obviously forgot to shift into 4th gear.....
| SGKent wrote: |
| wow - you can't get 5500 out of a stock crank engine sustained for 3 hours? must be some terrible engine builders these days. I thought y'all were pretty good but this makes me doubt your abilities. |
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Maybe he sucks at building trannys?
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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maybe, but you obviously forgot to shift into 4th gear.....
| SGKent wrote: |
| wow - you can't get 5500 out of a stock crank engine sustained for 3 hours? must be some terrible engine builders these days. I thought y'all were pretty good but this makes me doubt your abilities. |
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Hotrodvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| wow - you can't get 5500 out of a stock crank engine sustained for 3 hours? must be some terrible engine builders these days. I thought y'all were pretty good but this makes me doubt your abilities. |
Quite a bold statement. I'm curious as to what your head temps look like.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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wow - you can't get 5500 out of a stock crank engine sustained for 3 hours? must be some terrible engine builders these days. I thought y'all were pretty good but this makes me doubt your abilities.
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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I vote for Wasserboxer Crankshaft & flywheel.
Quit screwing around with junk. 
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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168,000+ members on The Samba and only 30 people have voted?
Last edited by DarthWeber on Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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77charger
Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2005
Posts: 1492
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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go counterweighted.If you do decide you need more power later on the crank is a good start.
If for off road your rpms will be up.Say you are climbing a soft dirt/sand hill you will spin the motor up and likely about 5k rpm.
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The Noof
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 4346
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| The Noof wrote: |
| a non-counterwieghted,balanced engine? |
Can you balance a non-CW crank? |
Yes Glenn,you can:Piston/rods/pins/clips/ are wieghed and replicated by bob wieghts.Bob wieghts are attatched to the rod throws,than balanced. |
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melville
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2006
Posts: 1246
Location: Just Outside the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Hotrodvw wrote: |
| Wow... Might want to install a tach. I don't think that calculates out right. I'm barely at 4500 at 90. |
SGKent was talking about a Bus. I've got probably the same gearing in my Westy, and I get 5K at 80. I don't do 90 in a Bus.
On the subject:
| SGKent wrote: |
| I pulled studs, cracked rear of cases, wore shims through crank to dowells, cracked heads but never had a single issue with crank,rods, pistons or valves. |
Sounds like he had some case problems, which I understand is the main reason for a CW crank in a mag cased T1.
Any T1 I build that is not absolutely stock will have a CW crank. It's only a few bucks more.
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Hotrodvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: |
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It all depends on what your tolerances are..... How close is acceptable, etc.. You can balance anything, with lots of work.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| The Noof wrote: |
| a non-counterwieghted,balanced engine? |
Can you balance a non-CW crank?
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The Noof
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 4346
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| I think this pole is retarded.IF you're building an air cooled VW engine of any sort, for any purpose, 1600cc or larger,why would you even consider a non-counterwieghted,balanced engine? |
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veedubcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2005
Posts: 2130
Location: La Porte, Tx.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:30 am Post subject: |
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C/W crank.
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I vote for CW  I ran a 1/2 1600 Buggy in SCORE events my rear tires were off the ground alot =5k+rpms  That was 30+ yrs ago and I still have the motor It's in my daily driver
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sturgeongeneral
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Joined: June 23, 2005
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Location: Sacramento, California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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For lonevity and piece of mind, counterwieghted AND BALANCED! For a little bit more money, just pay it. In the long run it is definetely worth it!
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