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19typethree67
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007
Posts: 351
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
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Location: Mesa, Arizona
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19typethree67
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007
Posts: 351
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Strainer Supplier |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
Yes. Why not pay a bit more and get a CB in sump filter? Stains out way more. |
Cool, I'll check it out. Thanks  |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Strainer Supplier |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
Yes. Why not pay a bit more and get a CB in sump filter? Stains out way more. |
Putting a filter on the suction side of the oil pump is a bad idea. if it clogs... your sucking air.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Adriel Rowley
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Name one engine manufacturer that puts a filter on the suction side?
And GEX doesn't count.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Adriel Rowley
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blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 11498
Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
Name one engine manufacturer that puts a filter on the suction side?
And GEX doesn't count. |
Each to his own.  |
not much in the way of proof then?
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póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
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19typethree67
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007
Posts: 351
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 11498
Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| blankmange wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
Name one engine manufacturer that puts a filter on the suction side?
And GEX doesn't count. |
Each to his own. |
not much in the way of proof then? |
Do not want to hijack the thread, as his question has been answered.  Also, if one wants further information, just read the other thread. |
but if it's a good counterpoint to what be an errant suggestion, why is that a hi-jack?
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póg mo thóin
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norcalmike
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Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 4784
Location: Marina, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| whats wrong with the stock strainer. hasn't it worked well for over 50 years? |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| blankmange wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
Name one engine manufacturer that puts a filter on the suction side?
And GEX doesn't count. |
Each to his own. |
not much in the way of proof then? |
Ok- I'm not going to start a riot in here, but I am running this filter sump, and I did so after speaking with several industry mechanical, fluid, and aerospace engineers who also hold PHd's here at my school and who assured me based on the design of the product (they physically held it in their hands) and the nature of the application that there wouldn't be an issue.
the summary of my various discussions with them ended up with these conclusions:
1) being on the suction side of the pick up tube is not a deal breaker. In this case, Glenns assertion is comparing apples with oranges -- VW never designed a spin on type oil filter for T3 engines, and so asking to produce another manufacturer who does this isn't fair. The kit is a retrofit and as such has to make do with the constraints on it. While T1's have the space for the filter-on-pump cover method (a factory VW design) and T4's utilized them as stock equip, T3's are in the unique position where everything save tapping the case and going full-flow isn't an option. I'll add that the by the same argument Glenn makes knocking the filter/sump, I'll knock full flow on ANY engine. Lines can be inadvertently cut, ripped off, melted or scraped through, and even steel braided ones can fail internally while appearing fine from the outside. Does this mean nobody should run them? 
no. its a calculated risk inherent in the nature of retrofitting equipment to an engine the original designers never intended it to have.
in our case specifically, you can hack a fan shroud and lose cooling air, you can add a bunch of low hanging lines in tight spaces around the exhaust, and then figure out a place to mount the filter where it won't be in the way (not exactly easy on a T3) or you can take the opposite calculated risk and put it on the bottom using this filter sump kit. Either way, you have a certain amount of risk that can theoretically destroy your engine.
I'll add to Glenn that my Professor in fluid dynamics (who works for JPL as a consultant) told me there are several industrial applications where retrofit kits similar to this one have functioned for years without any incident whatsoever.
To say that because no modern automanufacturer does it is unfair-- they have the benefit of designing the motor from the ground up with a filter in mind, so of course they have no reason to put it on the pick-up side when they have the lee-way of designing the case and all the components to be on the pushing side. As far as being a simple, straightforward, and reliable kit this pretty much takes the cake for T3 applications.
2) you say that a clog will cause the engine to starve for oil. Right, but that's why there is a gigantic check valve. Talking to the Mechanical engineering senior design lab professor here, he told me that in his opinion, the check valve was more than robust enough to handle our application, and that should a clog occur, it would be no worse starving the pick-up for oil than it would be starving 1 or more of the main bearings, connecting rods, etc, by having a clog in an external spin on filter or cooler set up with full flow lines running all over the place. A sufficiently large clog is a sufficiently large clog and you're going to starve oil SOMEWHERE. It's a LOOP system.
3) How often do YOU see an oil sludge build up so terrible that it clogs an oil filter? Not often. Probably a handful of cases in thousands, or tens of thousands. Not only that, but the VW community isn't like your average saturn driver -- we (most of the time) change our oil in intervals farrrr below the 10,000 mi (or more!) that some people wait. I know I for one change my oil RELIGIOUSLY every 3k miles, or whenever I feel like "it's been a while", whichever comes first. Frequent oil changes were VW's original mentality for not having a filter in the first place. If you change your oil often, theres no reason to believe theres going to be this catastrophic build up of oil sludge that's going to clog the filter, and somehow hinder the check valve from operating.
Before you knock it, do some research. I spoke to as many experts in the field that I could before making the purchase, but as Adriel said, To each his own. Until someone comes back with a report of failure, a documented case, then I think I'll leave the engineering to real engineers.
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71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
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Last edited by JSMskater on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
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Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| norcalvw wrote: |
| whats wrong with the stock strainer. hasn't it worked well for over 50 years? |
nothing is particularly "wrong" with the stock strainer, just that it doesn't do a very good job of actually FILTERING the oil -- it picks out large metal shavings and things but it isn't any good for capturing the smaller particles that make their way into engines and over time lead to a shorter life. There's a reason why even VW eventually used true filters on their air-cooled engines (including mexican made beetles)
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71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
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I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of words but I still never seen a engine manufacturer put a filter on the suction side.... not a single one.
Retrofit... hell, just put a filter pump on and at least it's a real filter.
Hey... it's your engine, knock yourself out.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Lots of words but I still never seen a engine manufacturer put a filter on the suction side.... not a single one.
Retrofit... hell, just put a filter pump on and at least it's a real filter.
Hey... it's your engine, knock yourself out. |
Glenn... you're a bug owner. You don't get it... YOU CAN'T USE A FILTER PUMP ON A T3 -- not without hacking the fan shroud, mustache bar, and even THEN it may not work. There simply isn't enough room.
secondly, nobody is countering you on manufacturers not putting it on the suction side -- THEY HAVE THE BENEFIT OF DESIGN FROM STAGE ONE TO INCLUDE A FILTER. they have no REASON to take the risk of such a clog when they don't have to! It's the nature of the retrofit to make a compromise and take the calculated risk so you can make it work. it's comparing apples and oranges.
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71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| Glenn... you're a bug owner. You don't get it... YOU CAN'T USE A FILTER PUMP ON A T3 -- not without hacking the fan shroud, mustache bar, and even THEN it may not work. There simply isn't enough room. |
Understood.....
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| Glenn... you're a bug owner. You don't get it... YOU CAN'T USE A FILTER PUMP ON A T3 -- not without hacking the fan shroud, mustache bar, and even THEN it may not work. There simply isn't enough room. |
Understood..... |
Did you not notice what forum you were in? 
Like I was trying to point out -- in an ideal world you'd just go with the same set-up VW of Mex. went with on their later beetle engines -- but for T3's that just simply isn't an option. Nature of the beast, and as such we have to take the calculated risk if we want to run true oil filtration.
what it boils down to is trust and preference:
do you trust that CB makes a good product with sound engineering and a well designed check valve?
do you trust that their choice of manufacturer has reasonable controls over quality?
do you prefer to have full oil filtration without ANY modifications to the stock components, and is fully removable?
if you answered YES to all of those, then the filter sump is what you want. It's BARELY 2 inches deep, with a recessed drain plug, and is BEEFY in construction. I was extremely skeptical until I talked to experts in the field and had my questions answered -- and the odds are that you will likely never have a problem with this set up.
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71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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19typethree67
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007
Posts: 351
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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What have I begun? Or maybe we should blame Adriel?
Just playin, this is all good stuff actually. I love this forum!
Not that I have made a decision but really, what are the dimensions on this thing? Wise to run w/ a 1-outer lowered rear? |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 19typethree67 wrote: |
What have I begun? Or maybe we should blame Adriel?
Just playin, this is all good stuff actually. I love this forum!
Not that I have made a decision but really, what are the dimensions on this thing? Wise to run w/ a 1-outer lowered rear? |
Personally, I wouldn't. I don't like anything hanging below the case really, and I made the compromise this once because it really is the absolute shortest profile I have ever seen. It measured 1 3/4 inch from the lip where it meets the case down to the lowest fin on the sump/filter itself.
I had a sump on my old beetle that hung 3.5 inches below, and I smacked it good one day and broke/cracked the ring of metal that bolts to the bottom of the case, and nearly lost all my oil. Ever since then, I've distrusted sumps immensly.
The benefit of this kit is that its centered squarely on the engine, so it wont catch or bang around on steep driveways and stuff, and even if you bottom out the suspension I think your exhaust would hit first.
If you're lowered and wanna try it, thats on you. If you're stock height, then i don't see any real risk unless you're offroad or something.
here's a picture of mine, when I mounted it to the engine on the stand:
you can see how it doesn't hang very low at all. the spot where the header meets the muffler on my ISP over the top exahust is lower than that, and I've only scraped it ONCE and that was when I was loaded to the gills on a really steep incline.
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71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
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I make D-jet FI connectors |
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