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Who has driven BOTH a Bostig van AND a 2.5 Subaru van?
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For that kind of power, $ will need to be spent.
This is in the league with WRX and will need trans work as they stated.
Tristar Eric has more than that into the STI and G50 combo in his red 2wd , for sure.
I appreciate the need for $peed.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro sez
Quote:
If ya got it spend it.
I'm all for it.
Those guys do great work.
Don't hate on them.

I ain't hatin'.
I have seen his motor conversion several times and it is really nice.
$15K+ is a big number that's all. I bought a 2wd with a rebuilt motor and a 5 speed, a syncro doka and a synco van for less than that.
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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TroySmith80 wrote:
Well, i did it! I just made a deal on a 2004 Forester engine with 70K and I bought the smallcar conversion kit!


Yeeeeee Hawwwwww!

You will not regret it. Good choice on the engine btw.

Keep us posted on the conversion and let us know how big your grin is when you fire her up.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
That's a great way to spend $15K+ on a motor conversion Shocked


If ya got it spend it.
I'm all for it.
Those guys do great work.
Don't hate on them.

dylan
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job Troy.
You are going to love it!
Keep us posted on your progress.

dylan
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TroySmith80
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, i did it! I just made a deal on a 2004 Forester engine with 70K and I bought the smallcar conversion kit!
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a great way to spend $15K+ on a motor conversion Shocked
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benny,
Here ya go.......

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4116788#4116788

These guys certainly know what they are doing and it will smog in Cali.

dylan
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TroySmith80
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Through the Yahoo Subaru Vanagon group i've been doing a little networking. I also called the guys at Bostig and they hooked me up with a gentleman who had recently installed their kit. All these people were in Portland so i drove over there for the day on Sunday. A bit of a drive for me, but well worth the education.

redcanoe wrote:
Troy where did you manage to find a couple of vans to try out ? Westy gathering of somekind.

Fantastic thread, great reading

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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Crughy"]
wcdennis wrote:
If you do a little research on basic engine geometry you will come across this:
Quote:
Boxers are one of only three cylinder layouts that have a natural dynamic balance; the others being the straight-6 and the V12. These engines can run very smoothly and free of unbalanced forces with a four-stroke cycle and do not require a balance shaft or counterweights on the crankshaft to balance the weight of the reciprocating parts, which are required in other engine configurations.


I always thought that it was the 5 cyl engines that had such balances, by design?

JP


Basic physic...

Weight VS gravity, nothing else. Push pull. positive versus negative

I don't beleive inline 6 or V12 are better than V8, pure BS.

It's a question of balance, good technology and wisdom. An inline 4 can be as smooth as any other engine. It's just a question of balance.

5cyl, 3 VS 2, BS, it's a good engine design, nothing else.

Single cylinder VS twin, single have more toque and twin are more smooth, power wise they are very similar.

The real question is will it fit in my engine bay?

Ben
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wcdennis
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Crughy"]
wcdennis wrote:
If you do a little research on basic engine geometry you will come across this:
Quote:
Boxers are one of only three cylinder layouts that have a natural dynamic balance; the others being the straight-6 and the V12. These engines can run very smoothly and free of unbalanced forces with a four-stroke cycle and do not require a balance shaft or counterweights on the crankshaft to balance the weight of the reciprocating parts, which are required in other engine configurations.


I always thought that it was the 5 cyl engines that had such balances, by design?

JP


Here is what I found:
Quote:
A five-cylinder engine gets a power stroke every 144 degrees (720° ÷ 5 = 144°). Since each power stroke lasts 180 degrees, this means that a power stroke is always in effect. Because of uneven levels of torque during the expansion strokes divided among the five cylinders, there is increased secondary-order vibrations. At higher engine speeds, there is an uneven third-order vibration from the crankshaft which occurs every 144 degrees. Because the power strokes have some overlap, a five-cylinder engine may run more smoothly than a non-overlapping four-cylinder engine, but only at limited mid-range speeds where second and third-order vibrations are lower.

I'm not an expert on this subject. I'm just passing along information that I found interesting.
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redcanoe
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy where did you manage to find a couple of vans to try out ? Westy gathering of somekind.

Fantastic thread, great reading
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Crughy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="wcdennis"]If you do a little research on basic engine geometry you will come across this:
Quote:
Boxers are one of only three cylinder layouts that have a natural dynamic balance; the others being the straight-6 and the V12. These engines can run very smoothly and free of unbalanced forces with a four-stroke cycle and do not require a balance shaft or counterweights on the crankshaft to balance the weight of the reciprocating parts, which are required in other engine configurations.


I always thought that it was the 5 cyl engines that had such balances, by design?

JP
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TroySmith80
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a V2.0, completed within the last several weeks. Brand new Ford Racing motor.

I want to be clear though, i would be absolutely thrilled to have a Bostig in my van. The improvement over stock is huge, and the install looked great. I just happen to personally like the subaru a little better.
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Williamtaylor33
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TroySmith80 wrote:

I didn't SEE any vibration on the bostig. In fact, when we started it up and were just looking, i commented on how smooth it looked. And i rested my hand on the valve cover and there was almost no movement. Driving was a different story though.

Thats not my experience at all. Maybe i missed it...but did you drive a V.1 or a V.2? They totally changed the mounting setup with the newest version of the conversion.
I have driven several conversions and own a bostig. And have never have any vibration issues.
I drove a Tiico converted syncro westy yesterday and was surprised at the vibration. My wife even comments that she thinks that the zetec is smoother than the old WBX'er that was back there before.
That being said i think the 2.5 subaru would be a fine choice
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wcdennis
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do a little research on basic engine geometry you will come across this:
Quote:
Boxers are one of only three cylinder layouts that have a natural dynamic balance; the others being the straight-6 and the V12. These engines can run very smoothly and free of unbalanced forces with a four-stroke cycle and do not require a balance shaft or counterweights on the crankshaft to balance the weight of the reciprocating parts, which are required in other engine configurations.
...and...
Quote:
... inline four cylinder engines which, due to the asymmetry of their design, have an inherent second order vibration (vibrating at twice the engine RPM) which cannot be eliminated no matter how well the internal components are balanced. This vibration is generated because the movement of the connecting rods in an inline engine is not symmetrical throughout the crankshaft rotation; thus during a given period of crankshaft rotation, the descending and ascending pistons are not always completely opposed in their acceleration, giving rise to a net vertical inertial force twice in each revolution whose intensity increases quadratically with RPM, no matter how closely the components are matched for weight.
...and...
Quote:
Most inline-four engines below 2.0 litres in displacement rely on the damping effect of their engine mounts to reduce the vibrations to acceptable levels.
I'm not saying that what you experienced is attributable to this fact, but it is something to consider.
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TroySmith80
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the tips, Ben.

I didn't SEE any vibration on the bostig. In fact, when we started it up and were just looking, i commented on how smooth it looked. And i rested my hand on the valve cover and there was almost no movement. Driving was a different story though.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhinoculips wrote:
I'm glad you put the EJ22 on the table. It is an amazing engine! People see the EJ25 with more power and think its a better engine and forget about the EJ22.


The 2.2L is a tank! One of the best 4cyl out there. Well, it's getting older and that is the only reason i'm not doing some, from stop sign to stop sign and that to red line it's about the same power as a 2.5L. Where the 2.5L show it's guts is on heavy hills and higher freeway speed.

The late 2.5L vibrate a bit more at idle, nothing terible but a little bit more than the 2000-04 engine. A lot as to do with the engine mount quality.

The Bostig of Brady that i heard in Busfusion was very quiet and i didn't SEE any vibration. It was at that time the new phase2. Nicely done conversion.

The Subi are very quiet, but you need to use a Ernst muffler and NOT the now el cheapo Brosal now made in Philippine. An Emico CAT is also a must, don't use the cheap stuff. Installing the exhaust system is also a bit tricky for a novice, you need to make sure everything is loose but installed before thigting each bolt, screw then in one by one, little by little.

DON'T but NEVER use the Small Car donuts as gasket, just don't!! i can't tell you why but it's an horror story, use some OEM VW solid one.

Intake pluming, not really, but the stock 2.2L elbow does the best job as to air noise, stock filter box or not.

Ben
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TroySmith80
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's interesting. In either case, subaru or bostig, some apparently are smooth and quiet, and some are rough and loud.

I sure wish i knew why that was. I would guess that intake plumbing could be a significant factor, as well as exhaust.

The 2.2 that i drove had Eric's Porsche 911 muffler setup on it, and an open cone filter in the rear driver side of engine bay.
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mtnwater
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work Troy - seeing, driving, and comparing is the only way to get a good idea of the differences. Your findings with respect to noise/vibration/harshness, however, are the complete opposite of my experience.

My EJ 22 was loud and had a bit of a rough growl to it. I tried two different headers and three different mufflers - no joy.

The zetec, in contrast, is smoooooth and amazingly quiet. Sounds like the install you saw may have had some issues...

Just know that there can be some very significant variability with conversions, particularly with the subaru's.

Best of luck!
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