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jitterbug
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Salinas Ca.
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 Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: drive gear |
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my dis. drive gear is set like the red line on the pic is it OK to run it?https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/583549.jpg
o and i don't have the tool to pull it out |
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mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Then I guess it will have to be ok.
Wherever it is, the wires can be oriented to make it work fine. |
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sturgeongeneral
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Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 2460
Location: Sacramento, California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Your pic did not work. You can either buy a tool pretty cheap, or using standard tools you can get it up fairly easily.
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jitterbug
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Salinas Ca.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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so MHARNEY you are saying to put wire #1 on #2, #2 on #3, #3 on #4 and #4 on #1?
thanks and sorry for the dumb question. |
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mharney
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Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| I'm saying find out where the rotor is pointing when #1 is at TDC, and then make that post location #1, and then follow suit for the rest, so that in clockwise motion, you go 1, 4, 3, 2. |
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runamoc 
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5600
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| mharney wrote: |
Then I guess it will have to be ok.
Wherever it is, the wires can be oriented to make it work fine. |
If he's running points on a 009, #3 cylinder spark retard will be on the wrong cylinder. He will need to go w/electronic ignition to get around that. |
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mharney
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Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| It's not the lobe that triggers the spark event. It is the proximity of the rotor contact to the post. |
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jitterbug
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Salinas Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Ok I get it thanks for the help, o and I do have electronic ignition.
Thanks jr. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76909
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| runamoc wrote: |
| If he's running points on a 009, #3 cylinder spark retard will be on the wrong cylinder. He will need to go w/electronic ignition to get around that. |
Real Bosch 009 are not retarded on #3 |
So true... please stop saying that.
And the drive can be put in anyway... it only matters if you can't turn the distributor body because the vacuum canister or condenser hit the fuel pump. Just set the engine to TDC on #1 and rotate the body so the rotor points to the #1 mark. Then set the timing as normal. It doesn't matter if #1 is at 2 o'clock, 4 o'clock or 9 o'clock.
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Glenn
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runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5600
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| runamoc wrote: |
| If he's running points on a 009, #3 cylinder spark retard will be on the wrong cylinder. He will need to go w/electronic ignition to get around that. |
Real Bosch 009 are not retarded on #3 |
So true... please stop saying that. |
So ALL of those books and related articles are wrong? I've search high and low and can't find anything except that the 009 has a spark retard on #3. Could you provide me a link stating the 009 doesn't have it?, or maybe vwracerdave can? |
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Glenn
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Joined: December 25, 2001
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Well... I just tested the old German Bosch OO9 that I have and found #3 retarded 7 degrees, #4 advanced 4 degrees and #2 retarded 2 degrees.
In other words... it's beat to shit and is all over the place.
Also the dwell wanders so this is not a good example.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But back to the topic... it's doesn't matter if #3 is retarded, you still put the wires on starting from the #1 mark and going 1-4-3-2 clockwise, so #3 is still in the same place on the distributor.
It doesn't matter if #1 is at 1 o'clock or 7 o'clock. The mark on the body is the reference... not the orientation to the engine.
For example, here's a Bosch 034 and a Bosch OO9. The #1 mark is at a different location and they will install differently. But #1 is still #2 and #3 is 180 degrees from it. That does not change.
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Glenn
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I deleted my original comment because I may have mispoken. I have since seen information that 009 are retarded on #3
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runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5600
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
But back to the topic... it's doesn't matter if #3 is retarded, you still put the wires on starting from the #1 mark and going 1-4-3-2 clockwise, so #3 is still in the same place on the distributor.
It doesn't matter if #1 is at 1 o'clock or 7 o'clock. The mark on the body is the reference... not the orientation to the engine.
For example, here's a Bosch 034 and a Bosch OO9. The #1 mark is at a different location and they will install differently. But #1 is still #2 and #3 is 180 degrees from it. That does not change. |
Absolutely correct. The 'line' on the edge of the dist. is for #1. Never said it wasn't. The lobe 'hump peak', there is four, but you know that, with a correctly installed drive gear, Max?, will be under the points 'wiper'. As the engine turns to the position for #3 cylinder THAT lobe's 'hump peak' will be 3 degrees retarded from the other three.
Now if the wires aren't put where they are suppose to go on the dist. what ever cylinder wire is on #3 position on the dist. will have the 3 degree retard and not the #3 cylinder like it was designed to do.
Way back ,before Gore invented the internet, as 'grasshopper' I set the static timing on an engine using #3 cylinder. Thinking "Hey it's just 180 out but the same". My wise master explained to me the errors of my thinking. I will never forget. 
Have you ever read that you can set the timing on either? I haven't. They always say #1, because there is a reason. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76909
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| runamoc wrote: |
| Now if the wires aren't put where they are suppose to go on the dist. what ever cylinder wire is on #3 position on the dist. will have the 3 degree retard and not the #3 cylinder like it was designed to do. |
Why would you not put it on #3?
Like I said... it doesn't matter how the drive is installed as long as you can set the timing without the condenser or vacuum canister hitting the fuel pump.
#3 should always be #3.
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Glenn
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runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5600
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| runamoc wrote: |
| If he's running points on a 009, #3 cylinder spark retard will be on the wrong cylinder. He will need to go w/electronic ignition to get around that. |
Real Bosch 009 are not retarded on #3 |
So true... please stop saying that. |
Stay focused Glenn. The lobes on the dist. shaft are orientated with the drive gear. The outer part of the dist. is orientated with the shaft and lobes. These lobes operate the points that are 'part' of the outer dist. body. With the drive gear in the correct position the rotor button will point to a notch on the dist. body. It will also have the lobe that moves the points under the 'wiper' for #1 cylinder. If the drive gear is say two cylinders off. 180. The rotor will not line up with the notch on the dist. edge at TDC on #1 cylinder. It will be over two spaces in #3s spot. The outer part of the dist. is will no longer orientated with the shaft that is 180 out. This means #3 cylinder lobe is moving the points to fire #1 cylinder wire thats where the #3 wire should be if the gear was in right. That means the 3 degree retarded lobe that should be under the points 'wiper' for #3 is now firing #1. The dist. is of two parts, inner and outer, they work together, not 'it don't matter as long as it don't hit nothing'. |
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mharney
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Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Y'all are highjacking. The OP has EI.
So y'all are SOL, and that is the EOS. |
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runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5600
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| mharney wrote: |
| It's not the lobe that triggers the spark event. It is the proximity of the rotor contact to the post. |
mharney, you seem to know alot about carburetors. Stick with what you know.
It 's not a 'highjacking', merely a discussion on the importance of having the dist. drive gear, in the engine, properly installed, as asked by the OP in their first post, thus 'on topic'. The latter revealed fact of the OP having an electronic ignition only makes it a moot point. As I explained when I posted 'it doesn't matter if the gear is installed wrong if you have an EI'. |
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mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Let's see.
- coil is a transformer (two inductors with some dialetric space)
- at t=0 (when points close) the coil starts to build a field, and current=0, E=0
- at t=max (right before points open) current=max, E=max
- points open, E collapses and secondary current is induced on R=very high, so V=very high.
I think I get it.
My point is ... wait a minute...
What is my point? 
Now THAT is highjacking. |
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Max Welton
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Location: Black Forest, CO
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runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5600
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
| runamoc wrote: |
| The lobe 'hump peak', there is four, but you know that, with a correctly installed drive gear, Max?, will be under the points 'wiper'. |
Hey now. Don't be dragging me into this.  Max |
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