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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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 Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| ragnarhairybreeks wrote: |
Jake,
that front ratio is interesting. On a syncro, the front ration is about 1.4:1.
alistair |
Interesting. Sounds like Syncros have more front suspension travel and/or longer lower control arms. I have no experience with Syncros but the drawings in the Bentley appear to support that - it looks more like a leading arm design vs. the lateral wishbone type 2wd lower arm.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| it looks more like a leading arm design vs. the lateral wishbone type 2wd lower arm. |
Especially on the later Syncros |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| kuleinc wrote: |
| Can anyone say roughly how much a half or one inch spacer nets you in actual height gained? |
In the front the ratio is 2:1 and in the rear its 1.4:1 ie 1/2" in the front nets you a 1" lift, 1/2" in the rear gets you .7".
Rear ratio courtesy Volks Cafe. |
For what it's worth, I just went out and roughly measured a set of front and rear 2wd arms and got the following ratios:
Front = 1.85:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.925" lift)
Rear = 1.14:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.57" lift)
Calculations made with a 30mm offset wheel.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Wed May 15, 2013 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| kuleinc wrote: |
| Can anyone say roughly how much a half or one inch spacer nets you in actual height gained? |
In the front the ratio is 2:1 and in the rear its 1.4:1 ie 1/2" in the front nets you a 1" lift, 1/2" in the rear gets you .7".
Rear ratio courtesy Volks Cafe. |
For what it's worth, I just went out and roughly measured a set of front and rear 2wd arms and got the following ratios:
Front = 1.57:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.785" lift)
Rear = 1.11:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.555 lift) |
That's mathematical, right - not 'on the van'?
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| kuleinc wrote: |
| Can anyone say roughly how much a half or one inch spacer nets you in actual height gained? |
In the front the ratio is 2:1 and in the rear its 1.4:1 ie 1/2" in the front nets you a 1" lift, 1/2" in the rear gets you .7".
Rear ratio courtesy Volks Cafe. |
For what it's worth, I just went out and roughly measured a set of front and rear 2wd arms and got the following ratios:
Front = 1.57:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.785" lift)
Rear = 1.11:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.555 lift) |
That's mathematical, right - not 'on the van'? |
Mathematical...but I screwed up! The original front calculation was taken from the pivot, spring and balljoint axis'. The corrected front calculation is from the pivot axis, spring axis and the centerline of the tire contact patch. The rear was recalculated to include the offset of the wheel. Below are the corrected calculations (also corrected in the original post):
Front = 1.85:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.925" lift)
Rear = 1.14:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.57" lift)
Calculations made with a 30mm offset wheel. All measurements are approximate.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| kuleinc wrote: |
| Can anyone say roughly how much a half or one inch spacer nets you in actual height gained? |
In the front the ratio is 2:1 and in the rear its 1.4:1 ie 1/2" in the front nets you a 1" lift, 1/2" in the rear gets you .7".
Rear ratio courtesy Volks Cafe. |
For what it's worth, I just went out and roughly measured a set of front and rear 2wd arms and got the following ratios:
Front = 1.57:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.785" lift)
Rear = 1.11:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.555 lift) |
That's mathematical, right - not 'on the van'? |
Mathematical...but I screwed up! The original front calculation was taken from the pivot, spring and balljoint axis'. The corrected front calculation is from the pivot axis, spring axis and the centerline of the tire contact patch. The rear was recalculated to include the offset of the wheel. Below are the corrected calculations (also corrected in the original post):
Front = 1.85:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.925" lift)
Rear = 1.14:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.57" lift)
Calculations made with a 30mm offset wheel. All measurements are approximate. |
Thanks for the clarification, Chris! 
I plan to re-install the Carat springs in my van but with spacers, so that I get firmer springing but lose less ground clearance. I have a couple of sizes of HDPE here and will report my results.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Front = 1.57:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.785" lift)
Rear = 1.11:1 (a 0.50" spacer yields a 0.555 lift) |
I think this defies the laws of physics.
How, if you lift all four corners with static blocks, can you lift an object (with mass), more than the height of the blocks at ALL 4 corners?
I can see how, if you are only placing spacers in the rear, the rear may lift slightly more than height of spacer.. because you are moving the center of gravity forward, thus more downward force moves over front wheels, and becomes less force over the rear..
But if all 4 corners go up? I think you're going to get pretty much the height of the spacers, as long as spacer are approx. equal in height
I was under the impression that these ratios are only applicable when you place one spacer in. Add a second spacer at any other corner and these numbers no longer hold true.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Vango Conversions
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 1054
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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You get more lift more than the spacer because the springs are mounted between the axle and the pivot of the cotrol arm. If the spring was right on top of the axle, the lift would equal the spacer, but it isn't.
If the spring was 1/2 way between the control arm pivot and the axle and you added a 1" spacer, it would lift the van 2" make sense? |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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I can see that for the front, maybe.. but I was not able to add a 3/8" spacer in there much less a 1/2"er.
The spring perch won't hold it.. Wants to squeeze the spring top out the side.
Have read that you can only go 1/4".. unless you buy the custom milled aluminum jobbers. So the 1/4" gives approx. 3/8"?
In the rear, I added 5/8"ers last year for a temporary adjustment.. and my measurement gave me about 5/8" lift at hub center. I guess its possible I was too sloppy in my measuring to see the 10% variation.
I have custom 16s in the rear now.. so maybe that factors, as well.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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512dude
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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These are the dimensions [inches] I used to make my own spacers, I used a 1/2" HDPE sheet for the material.
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mwistrom
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2013
Posts: 16
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:20 pm Post subject: how do the spacers affect the camber? |
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So, it looks like 1" of spacer adds about ~1.2" of lift for the rear. How is the camber affected?
I've been trying to get the camber for the rear wheels in spec, but I've run out of range with the leading bolt/pivot arm. There is too much negative camber. I assume that my 23 year old springs have shrunk a bit and adding the spacers will get me closer, if not in, spec with respect to the camber.
Or am I going about this the wrong way? It seems that adding the spacers is what people do to level out the van, and they talk about how it handles differently, most times better, but no one has mentioned rear toe or camber. Is the alignment affected?
Thanks,
Mark |
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kuleinc
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1604
Location: East Bay Area, California
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Spacers compress springs really well. |
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kuleinc
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1604
Location: East Bay Area, California
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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kuleinc
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1604
Location: East Bay Area, California
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| kuleinc wrote: |
| They start to limit the amount of "space" between control arm and top spring perch. One spacer won't hurt, I wouldn't put more than what I've got. My sagging is especially bad when I tow my double place jet ski trailer in the summer. When not towing my van has a bit of rake... |
Much success, here, with load assist adjustable air shocks for towing/hauling.
If you're level or raked when "normal", air up only as needed for the tow.
Best of both worlds, IMO.
They can be plumbed independently to correct side to side.. if the van has any lean.
You might also find that a rear sway bar improves handling considerably in a van like your's that is used to haul gear.. and really helps settle the rear down when towing.
I used the Addco with some subtle "adjustments" to install.. Quite pleased in day-to-day driving.. as well as the heavy stuff.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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MrPolak
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2004
Posts: 1337
Location: AG ,atnaltA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Update: You may have to remove both lower control arm bolts on some vehicles. This may have been said somewhere between here and the first page.
Update #2: I made spacers as in original post for two different Westys. Orignals were done in 2000. I used one set for 4 years on my '85, and another set on my '84 for 6 years.
Update #3: I sure am glad what seemed like a harebrained idea at first has helped so many people. |
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6247
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Mine have been on probably bout 8 years or more. I saw them on your original web site and I used a band saw to cut them out. No problems and thanks for the idea!
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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MrPolak
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2004
Posts: 1337
Location: AG ,atnaltA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I recently used a Dremel tool to make more circular circles. The hole already cut was done by hand, so not as pretty.
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