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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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 Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: |
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ok lets back up a second here Adriel. looking back over your posts and everything I want to do a quick recap/verify for me so we cover all the bases...
take a look at the diagram for a second. no. 2 relay should be the one under the dash, with no. 3 being the one under the seat. in one of your earlier posts you say the relay under the dash is feeding power to the rear. This isn't really how the circuit works-- both relays have their own power supplies (the one under the rear seat gets juice from the battery) and the one under the dash from the fuse box once the key is switched on PLUS some more from the relay under the rear seat which is also kicked on by the ign. switch. 30/51 is the ignition symbol IIRC, and I think if phil verifies that the "a" on that relay goes off to the pos. side of the battery.
now looking at the internal part of no. 2, it appears that no 3 is the primary and 2 the secondary. 2 will not work if 3 isn't providing juice. You said 86 and 30/51 on relay 2 are getting juice -- ok. that should be correct, so double check. now. it appears that unless the wire coming off terminal 85 on the 2 relay is grounded (ie. engine running, engine cranking, etc) then the internal switch will not close, and 87 will not have juice.
here's the procedure for nailing this gremlin once and for all.
ground the wire in the engine compartment with the key switched on. DONT ground the wire thats coming out of the FI harness! that does nothing. You're not completing the circuit. Ground the wire that is going to the relay. another option is to just run a jumper to the engine and leave that t1 connector connected, and just jam the open wire inside it so you now have 3 wires at that connection instead of 2. current will find the path of least resistance (ground) and complete the circuit.
if this kicks the pump over, then you know that either the wire in your FI harness is broken/open or the internal ground in the ECU is kaput. check for continuity in wire 11 IIRC.
if this DOES NOT kick the pump over, then check the wire between terminal 85 of the 2 relay and the end in the engine compartment for continuity (zero or close to zero ohms of resistance) (you will need to disconnect the wire from the FI harness to prevent a false reading).
if that wire checks out, then it's either the relay or the ground wire for the pump itself. Check the ground wire for the pump. either run a jumper or check for continuity. if it's open the pump isn't gonna run. if that wire checks out, and youve got juice at 30/51, 86, and 85 is grounded, then the relay is SHOT and you need another one.
check the fuse too. 
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Adreil??
Do you want me to throw a stock relay in my suitcase when I come out?
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Adreil??
Do you want me to throw a stock relay in my suitcase when I come out? |
I think he'd be better off with a non-cursed squareback in your suitcase 
Adriel?
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
ok lets back up a second here Adriel. looking back over your posts and everything I want to do a quick recap/verify for me so we cover all the bases...
take a look at the diagram for a second. no. 2 relay should be the one under the dash, with no. 3 being the one under the seat. in one of your earlier posts you say the relay under the dash is feeding power to the rear. This isn't really how the circuit works-- both relays have their own power supplies (the one under the rear seat gets juice from the battery) and the one under the dash from the fuse box once the key is switched on PLUS some more from the relay under the rear seat which is also kicked on by the ign. switch. 30/51 is the ignition symbol IIRC, and I think if phil verifies that the "a" on that relay goes off to the pos. side of the battery.
now looking at the internal part of no. 2, it appears that no 3 is the primary and 2 the secondary. 2 will not work if 3 isn't providing juice. You said 86 and 30/51 on relay 2 are getting juice -- ok. that should be correct, so double check. now. it appears that unless the wire coming off terminal 85 on the 2 relay is grounded (ie. engine running, engine cranking, etc) then the internal switch will not close, and 87 will not have juice.
here's the procedure for nailing this gremlin once and for all.
ground the wire in the engine compartment with the key switched on. DONT ground the wire thats coming out of the FI harness! that does nothing. You're not completing the circuit. Ground the wire that is going to the relay. another option is to just run a jumper to the engine and leave that t1 connector connected, and just jam the open wire inside it so you now have 3 wires at that connection instead of 2. current will find the path of least resistance (ground) and complete the circuit.
if this kicks the pump over, then you know that either the wire in your FI harness is broken/open or the internal ground in the ECU is kaput. check for continuity in wire 11 IIRC.
if this DOES NOT kick the pump over, then check the wire between terminal 85 of the 2 relay and the end in the engine compartment for continuity (zero or close to zero ohms of resistance) (you will need to disconnect the wire from the FI harness to prevent a false reading).
if that wire checks out, then it's either the relay or the ground wire for the pump itself. Check the ground wire for the pump. either run a jumper or check for continuity. if it's open the pump isn't gonna run. if that wire checks out, and youve got juice at 30/51, 86, and 85 is grounded, then the relay is SHOT and you need another one.
check the fuse too. |
Good idea Joe to go over it all. I did this with Father, abet he has a hard time understanding, especially since he loves carbs! 
I was prepared to do this procedure, but since you removed the E.C.U. plug, I had yet to figure out how it all went back. So, thought be interesting to spend five minutes, and swap the E.C.U.s. Proceeded and completed, then went and turned on the ignition. I now have a working fuel pump!  Trouble is, the battery is at 12.3 volts, and the engine is having a hard time turning. Got it on the charger, and when topped, will try again.
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Adreil??
Do you want me to throw a stock relay in my suitcase when I come out? |
Russ, it is I before E.
I have two, thank you for the offer. However, I need a couple terminal blocks if you have them. Did not come on the harness.
| JSMskater wrote: |
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Adreil??
Do you want me to throw a stock relay in my suitcase when I come out? |
I think he'd be better off with a non-cursed squareback in your suitcase
Adriel? |
Oooo, that hurt. Do you want to come bless it with Russ? Don't forget your tester!
I am not sure about all the question marks, but I have class in the mornings, lab Thursday afternoons, tutoring center on Fridays until early afternoon, and of course I go to Church on Sunday morning. Then, I work some days.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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did you forget to plug something back in by chance? Main plug back on the ecu? grounds? relays all back together?
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| did you forget to plug something back in by chance? Main plug back on the ecu? grounds? relays all back together? |
I keep checking, and nothing is out of place. That is what bothers me.
One thought I had, would pump pressure bleeding off in a second or two have an affect? I noticed it started doing this last night.
B.T.W., have to drive it down to Kragen on Sunday, to have the charging system checked. If I do not make it, they will not honor the battery warranty. Some new policy.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| did you forget to plug something back in by chance? Main plug back on the ecu? grounds? relays all back together? |
I keep checking, and nothing is out of place. That is what bothers me.
One thought I had, would pump pressure bleeding off in a second or two have an affect? I noticed it started doing this last night.
B.T.W., have to drive it down to Kragen on Sunday, to have the charging system checked. If I do not make it, they will not honor the battery warranty. Some new policy. |
the pressure bleeding off after a second or two after you try and turn it over isnt ideal but thats not whats keepimg your engine from starting.
when was the last time it actually started and ran? What have you changed since then? My gut feeling right now is something silly is disconnected.
as for the battery thing thats normal, most places I've bought a battery at do it- if you want or care about the warranty anyway. Is it a hassle? Yeah but presumably if your engines charging system is in order it shouldn't be a problem lol. Tell them its a project car and ur not quite done with the motor work yet. They can usually give you and extension.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| did you forget to plug something back in by chance? Main plug back on the ecu? grounds? relays all back together? |
I keep checking, and nothing is out of place. That is what bothers me.
One thought I had, would pump pressure bleeding off in a second or two have an affect? I noticed it started doing this last night.
B.T.W., have to drive it down to Kragen on Sunday, to have the charging system checked. If I do not make it, they will not honor the battery warranty. Some new policy. |
the pressure bleeding off after a second or two after you try and turn it over isnt ideal but thats not whats keepimg your engine from starting. |
Fine, good to know. Thought I should not hold back anything.
| JSMskater wrote: |
| when was the last time it actually started and ran? What have you changed since then? My gut feeling right now is something silly is disconnected. |
It was running the morning of 28 August, when we drove it onto the tow truck. It was about a week or two before that, when I was driving it, and the brake line broke. When we got it off the truck, it would not start. The pump would not turn on, that was all.
| JSMskater wrote: |
| as for the battery thing thats normal, most places I've bought a battery at do it- if you want or care about the warranty anyway. Is it a hassle? Yeah but presumably if your engines charging system is in order it shouldn't be a problem lol. Tell them its a project car and ur not quite done with the motor work yet. They can usually give you and extension. |
They would not give an extension, thus why the rush.
I was told by Jim to measure across the coil terminals for voltage, and get none. I have 12.3 volts on either side, 0 resistance on the primary, and 8.28kohms on the secondary. Called Vee Parts, and the owner said it was bad, but there is no warranty.   So, I guess that is my problem. Now, if I can find one to test with, I be set.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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that's odd. I actually dont know the procedure for checking the coil. since I've never had a bad one, but maybe Russ will double check on that. The coil not working would certainly keep the engine from running. What kind of coil is it? I've used pertronix, bosch blue, and OG black ones and even an off-brand red one and never had a problem. How is it wired up?
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71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| that's odd. I actually dont know the procedure for checking the coil. since I've never had a bad one, but maybe Russ will double check on that. The coil not working would certainly keep the engine from running. What kind of coil is it? I've used pertronix, bosch blue, and OG black ones and even an off-brand red one and never had a problem. How is it wired up? |
It is real easy: just a Ohm meter. You want the resistance between the two terminals (primary circuit) and one terminal and the center hole (secondary circuit). If a circuit is open, 0 Ohms, then it is bad. If the secondary is less than four, it is bad, but will run the car with poor spark.
I want to be sure mine is bad, but I am positive. Russ seemed to agree (called him, even though I did not want to bother his peace) when I asked if he had a good black coil. He thinks he does, and will try and bring it out. Hope no one thinks he is a terrorist with the car parts and tools in his suitcase!
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I flew to washington with a duffel bag full of all my tools, including a timing gun and soldering iron and my crimper, but all i got was a lame TSA inspection tag that tells me they opened the bag. they;re not gonna bitch about a coil
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| I flew to washington with a duffel bag full of all my tools, including a timing gun and soldering iron and my crimper, but all i got was a lame TSA inspection tag that tells me they opened the bag. they;re not gonna bitch about a coil |
Have you had too many classes today? Tired?
You missed the joke.
B.T.W., the TSA folks are absolute idiots, but I do not want to hyjack my own thread!
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't say TSA and hijack in the same post! |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| I flew to washington with a duffel bag full of all my tools, including a timing gun and soldering iron and my crimper, but all i got was a lame TSA inspection tag that tells me they opened the bag. they;re not gonna bitch about a coil |
Have you had too many classes today? Tired?
You missed the joke.
B.T.W., the TSA folks are absolute idiots, but I do not want to hyjack my own thread! |
civil, electrical, and materials midterms tonight and tomorrow morning. it's been rough.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| I flew to washington with a duffel bag full of all my tools, including a timing gun and soldering iron and my crimper, but all i got was a lame TSA inspection tag that tells me they opened the bag. they;re not gonna bitch about a coil |
Have you had too many classes today? Tired?
You missed the joke.
B.T.W., the TSA folks are absolute idiots, but I do not want to hyjack my own thread! |
civil, electrical, and materials midterms tonight and tomorrow morning. it's been rough. |
Thought so. Good luck! 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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you know its gotten ridiculous when you write down mesh current equations on an indeterminate statics problem. I can't wait for the weekend.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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TheStig
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2008
Posts: 47
Location: South Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I was told by Jim to measure across the coil terminals for voltage, and get none. I have 12.3 volts on either side, 0 resistance on the primary, and 8.28kohms on the secondary. Called Vee Parts, and the owner said it was bad, but there is no warranty. Sad Mad So, I guess that is my problem. Now, if I can find one to test with, I be set. |
Pretty sure you want to measure the voltage at the solenoid coil terminals of the relay, not the ignition coil. |
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Adriel Rowley
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Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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